Elisse

[Tess]

I had heard that Beethoven had written Fur Elisse for a student named Elisse as practice music. Is there any truth to that?

Thanks.

[waldstein]

Originally posted by Tess:
I had heard that Beethoven had written Fur Elisse for a student named Elisse as practice music. Is there any truth to that?

Thanks.

Beethoven wrote the bagatelle "fur Elise" for Therese Malfatti who was his student and the daughter of his physician ,the editor -because of Beethoven's bad hand writing- couldn't read the name properly so he just put Elise instead of Therese.

[Peter]

The Bagatelle in A minor(WoO59) known as 'Fur Elise' was written in 1810 for Therese Malfatti - a lady Beethoven was considering marrying at that time. Nothing came of this, as Therese's father objected to the union and she was married in 1816 to Baron Von Drosdick. In a letter of May 1810 to Therese, Beethoven refers to the Bagatelle - 'In this letter, beloved Therese, you are receiving what I promised you.' Her uncle was Dr.Giovanni Malfatti, who treated Beethoven in his final illness and for whom Beethoven composed a short cantata Un lieto brindisi (WoO103) in 1814.
It has been suggested as Beethoven's hand-writing was notoriously bad that he had actually written 'Fur Therese' - however it seems that Beethoven did write the name 'Elise' which was used then as an affectionate name for a loved one.

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'Man know thyself'

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Peter:
The Bagatelle in A minor(WoO59) known as 'Fur Elise' was written in 1810 for Therese Malfatti - a lady Beethoven was considering marrying at that time. Nothing came of this, as Therese's father objected to the union and she was married in 1816 to Baron Von Drosdick. In a letter of May 1810 to Therese, Beethoven refers to the Bagatelle - 'In this letter, beloved Therese, you are receiving what I promised you.' Her uncle was Dr.Giovanni Malfatti, who treated Beethoven in his final illness and for whom Beethoven composed a short cantata Un lieto brindisi (WoO103) in 1814.
It has been suggested as Beethoven's hand-writing was notoriously bad that he had actually written 'Fur Therese' - however it seems that Beethoven did write the name 'Elise' which was used then as an affectionate name for a loved one.

1) We have no proof that Beethoven ever proposed to Therese Malfatti von Rohrenbach (that's her correct name).

2) Likewise we don't know anything about her father's opinion about this supposed marriage plan.

3) There's no proof that the passage in the letter refers to WoO 59. The dating of the letter is speculative.

4) Dr. Johann Malfatti (that's how he signed his name) was not Therese's uncle. He was a cousin of her father's.

5) Beethoven certainly did not write "Elise". Ludwig Nohl simply misread the name Therese. After all why would a woman who was baptized Maria Magdalena Theresia take it as a sign of affection being called "Elise" (Elisabeth)?



[This message has been edited by Cetto von Cronstorff (edited 04-08-2006).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
1) We have no proof that Beethoven ever proposed to Therese Malfatti von Rohrenbach (that's her correct name).

More precisely Therese Malfatti Von Rohrenbach zu Dezza. Indeed there is no proof but there is strong circumstantial evidence - Beethoven had written to Wegeler requesting his baptismal certificate. Breuning writes in 1810 to Wegeler that he believes Beethoven's marriage project had fallen through. This suggests that in 1810 Beethoven was at the very least contemplating marrying someone.

2) Likewise we don't know anything about her father's opinion about this supposed marriage plan.

Again there is evidence to suggest for some reason Beethoven was not welcome at the Malfatti home except for musical occasions.

3) There's no proof that the passage in the letter refers to WoO 59. The dating of the letter is speculative.

The dating isn't questioned by Emily Anderson.

4) Dr. Johann Malfatti (that's how he signed his name) was not Therese's uncle. He was a cousin of her father's.

I'm sure this is correct, but Anderson refers to Therese as his niece.

5) Beethoven certainly did not write "Elise". Ludwig Nohl simply misread the name Therese. After all why would a woman who was baptized Maria Magdalena Theresia take it as a sign of affection being called "Elise" (Elisabeth)?

I think this the most likely explanation, but I am intrigued that Elise was used as a general name for a loved one.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-09-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
1) We have no proof that Beethoven ever proposed to Therese Malfatti von Rohrenbach (that's her correct name).

More precisely Therese Malfatti Von Rohrenbach zu Dezza. Indeed there is no proof but there is strong circumstantial evidence - Beethoven had written to Wegeler requesting his baptismal certificate. Breuning writes in 1810 to Wegeler that he believes Beethoven's marriage project had fallen through. This suggests that in 1810 Beethoven was at the very least contemplating marrying someone.

2) Likewise we don't know anything about her father's opinion about this supposed marriage plan.

Again there is evidence to suggest for some reason Beethoven was not welcome at the Malfatti home except for musical occasions.

3) There's no proof that the passage in the letter refers to WoO 59. The dating of the letter is speculative.

The dating isn't questioned by Emily Anderson.

4) Dr. Johann Malfatti (that's how he signed his name) was not Therese's uncle. He was a cousin of her father's.

I'm sure this is correct, but Anderson refers to Therese as his niece.

5) Beethoven certainly did not write "Elise". Ludwig Nohl simply misread the name Therese. After all why would a woman who was baptized Maria Magdalena Theresia take it as a sign of affection being called "Elise" (Elisabeth)?

I think this the most likely explanation, but I am intrigued that Elise was used as a general name for a loved one.

The attribution 'zu Dezza' is not given in the official decree of nobilitation dated 2 April 1806.

Emily Anderson was not a Beethoven scholar, she was a translator. A more recent state of scholarship can be found in the complete German edition of Beethoven's letters by Sieghard Brandenburg or in Brandenburg's book 'Der Freundeskreis der Familie Malfatti in Wien', Beethoven-Haus Bonn, 1985.

Elise was never used as a 'general name for a loved one'. I wonder which German source from around 1800 led you to this assumption.

[Michael]

Beethoven's first published song, "Schilderung eines Madchens" (Description of a Young Woman) WoO107, 1782, contains the following lines:

"Do you want me, my friend, to describe
Elise to you?
May Uz's spirit
Inspire me!

Michael

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
The attribution 'zu Dezza' is not given in the official decree of nobilitation dated 2 April 1806.

Well it is in the Beethoven biographical dictionary (Oxford university press)

Emily Anderson was not a Beethoven scholar, she was a translator.

Yes but my edition is edited by Alan Tyson who most certainly was an eminent Beethoven scholar.


Elise was never used as a 'general name for a loved one'. I wonder which German source from around 1800 led you to this assumption.

I do not have the source for this, but it has been mentioned on this forum by a respected member.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
[
Elise was never used as a 'general name for a loved one'. I wonder which German source from around 1800 led you to this assumption.

I do not have the source for this, but it has been mentioned on this forum by a respected member.


[/B]

I'm wholely respectable, kind of. I have mentioned this here before from a source I have concerning this piece. I'm away from home at the moment but I can get the info when I return tomorow.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Barry Cooper, one of the most respected Beethoven scholars, has this to say:

The explanation for the puzzle must be that Beethoven used "Elise" as a kind of pet name for Therese. He was fond of using modifications of people's names, e.g. "Diabolus" for Diabeli. Moreover, he had good reason for not putting Therese's actual name on the manuscript and for omitting the year. He had suffered considerable embarrassment with his previous beloved when Lichnowsky had spotted Josephine's name on "An die Hoffnung" in 1805.
Beethoven would have wanted to avoid a repetition and therefore substituted some name similar to Therese. "Elise" was ideal since it sounded suitably poetic (it is sometimes used as the name of the beloved in songs, e.g. Beethoven's "Schilderung eines Madchens.")

Michael