Music and Painting

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Chazz, I disagree with you that response to different art forms is genetic (although ability to CREATE these art forms certainly is).

I think it has more to do with knowledge: if these people were to learn about these art forms and about specific pieces, especially from experts, then I am sure they will be better able to appreciate it.

Also, it is not surprising that the daughter of your friend has no interest in music (or is not moved by it) because children often rebel against the interests of their parents.

Both women - the one who has no interest in music and the one who has no interest in art - are highly intelligent, educated and cultured people who have each been exposed to and learned about the respective art forms to which they are indifferent. I asked each of them about this. So whether it is genetic or not, I don't think it's lack of education or exposure in these cases. Something in their personality and mental or emotional makeup is preventing a "normal" (for lack of a better term) reaction to the art form.

Most interesting to me is the case of lack of interest in music. Everyone else I know is not merely interested in but passionate about music of some kind, be it rock, jazz, soul, blues, classical or whatever. While many people lack interest in art or literature, you don't find many at all who lack interest in music. Many c=hildren rebel against their parents by loving a DIFFERENT kind of music, but I've never met anyone else who didn't love some kind of music. And the fact that her daughter is the same to me is very indicative. Think among your own family, friends and acquaintences and see if you come up with anyone who is indifferent to music.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 03-03-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Think among your own family, friends and acquaintences and see if you come up with anyone who is indifferent to music.

Indeed - it was Goethe who said "We ought to hear at least one little song every day, read a good poem, see a first rate painting, and if possible speak a few sensible words." Good advice!

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'Man know thyself'

[Frank H]

2006 is the 400th anniversary of the birth of Rembrandt. As part of the celebrations, “The Rijksmuseum and the Van Gogh Museum present in the Van Gogh Museum an extraordinary confrontation between the two geniuses of the Northern and Southern baroque. For the first time in history an exhibition is being devoted to two of the greatest 17th century artists in the world: Rembrandt van Rijn (1606-1669) and Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio (1571-1610). Over 20 monumental paintings on loan from major museums around the world offer a visual spectacle depicting powerful images of love, emotion and passion.”

A cultural programme on BBC2 TV here in the UK reported on this last night (March 2nd), and showed some of the exhibits, each featuring a painting by Rembrandt next to one by Caravaggio on a similar theme. The BBC portrayed the exhibit, half-jokingly, in terms of a boxing match between the two artists – which is picking up on the “confrontation” theme of the exhibit organizers.

Of relevance to this thread is that the BBC chose, as the musical accompaniment to this feature, not a piece of contemporary early 17th. Century Baroque music, but Beethoven’s overture “Coriolan”!

This got me thinking that painting initially may have evolved faster out of medieval styles than did music, and that in some ways the music of Beethoven’s era may represent a better aesthetic match with the painting of Rembrandt’s period than does that of the early 17th. Century composers.

Incidentally a close-up of the paintings suggested to me that, as compared with Caravaggio, the seeds of “Impressionism” were already present in Rembrandt. But I have to admit that I know even less about painting than I do about music – so I am quite prepared to be told that I am very wrong on this.

Frank

[Teresa]

[quote]Originally posted by Frank H:
[b]

Originally posted by Teresa:

Hello Frank,

Thank you for the very nice link to Friedrich. I must confess he's one I was not familiar with but now, thanks to your prompting, intend to pursue more of. He's paintings almost look like photographs, they're so fine and detailed.

Regards,
Teresa

Hello Teresa,

I'm glad I've "introduced" someone to Caspar David Friedrich! (You did the same for me with the American Impressionists)

As for the "photograph" simile, Photography can itself, at its finest, be an art form. Although I believe that the greatest painters, such as Friedrich, surpass the finest photographs.

Hi Frank,

Now that I've gone back and looked at the CGFA art index, I realize I've used a couple of Friedrich's paintings as my desktop and didn't even know it! Right now, I have the beautiful "Woman on the Beach at Rugen" as my background.

Regards,
Teresa

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Frank H:
2006 is the 400th anniversary of the birth of Rembrandt. As part of the celebrations, “The Rijksmuseum and the Van Gogh Museum present in the Van Gogh Museum an extraordinary confrontation between the two geniuses of the Northern and Southern baroque. For the first time in history an exhibition is being devoted to two of the greatest 17th century artists in the world: Rembrandt van Rijn (1606-1669) and Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio (1571-1610). Over 20 monumental paintings on loan from major museums around the world offer a visual spectacle depicting powerful images of love, emotion and passion.”

A cultural programme on BBC2 TV here in the UK reported on this last night (March 2nd), and showed some of the exhibits, each featuring a painting by Rembrandt next to one by Caravaggio on a similar theme. The BBC portrayed the exhibit, half-jokingly, in terms of a boxing match between the two artists – which is picking up on the “confrontation” theme of the exhibit organizers.

Of relevance to this thread is that the BBC chose, as the musical accompaniment to this feature, not a piece of contemporary early 17th. Century Baroque music, but Beethoven’s overture “Coriolan”!

This got me thinking that painting initially may have evolved faster out of medieval styles than did music, and that in some ways the music of Beethoven’s era may represent a better aesthetic match with the painting of Rembrandt’s period than does that of the early 17th. Century composers.

Incidentally a close-up of the paintings suggested to me that, as compared with Caravaggio, the seeds of “Impressionism” were already present in Rembrandt. But I have to admit that I know even less about painting than I do about music – so I am quite prepared to be told that I am very wrong on this.

Frank

Frank, your thought about painting evolving more quickly out of medieval styles than music is quite interesting.

As far as the works of Rembrandt having the 'seeds' of impressionism, two other 17th C. painters whose works also had these seeds were Franz Hals and Velazquez. But the palm must go to Giorgione of early 16th C. Venice.
His works teeter on the very edge of having the solid forms dissolve somewhat into tiny bits of paint and light. He died tragically young and his ideas were continued and devloped further by his friend Titian. Titian's works are increasingly impressionistic as he grows older. Closely related to this is his loose expressive brushwork and heavy buildups of encrusted paint, which is an independent agent of deep emotion all by itself. He more or less created on his own the tradition of expressive brushwork in painting. He sometimes painted with his fingers. Michelangelo disliked the dissolving of form in color, light and brushwork, and commented that Titian would have been a good painter had he learned to draw! Titian was a great favorite of Rembrandt's. Rembrandt's use of heavily built-up paint seems to sometimes be aimed at depicting how a form feels to the touch as much as, or more than, how it looks to the eye.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 03-16-2006).]

[HaydnFan]

That's an interesting comment from Michelangelo considering that in the opinion of many (including myself), he himself was not such a great painter. Of course, Michelangelo was probably the most gifted sculptor who ever lived...well, him and Bernini in my opinion.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
That's an interesting comment from Michelangelo considering that in the opinion of many (including myself), he himself was not such a great painter. Of course, Michelangelo was probably the most gifted sculptor who ever lived...well, him and Bernini in my opinion.

I know what you mean about Michelangelo. His paintings tend to look like colored sculptures, not paintings. But standing beneath the Sistine Ceiling in the Vatican, beig able to see it for really the first time as a whole, went a long way toward reconciling me to his painting.

For myself, I would add to your sculpture honor roll Phidias, the master sculptor of the Parthenon. Seeing most of what's left of the Parthenon sculptures in the British Museum can be stunning. A large figure from the Parthenon in the Acropolis Museum in Athens astonished me with its breath of life even though practically nothing is left of it but the trunk of the torso. To these must be added the forty-foot statue of a seated Zeus in his temple at Olympia, a thirty-eight foot Athena in the Parthenon, and a forty foot bronze Athena which stood outside the Parthenon on the Acropolis. All three of these giant sculptures have been lost since ancient times.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 03-16-2006).]

[HaydnFan]

Absolutely, I agree with you Chaszz about Phidias.

[Joy]

And I agree with you about Michelangelo! Marvelous!!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by stude_ham:
There is also the classical music as background to animated films.


The National Film Board of Canada also produced a number of animated shorts using classical music in the background. In the 60's Ryan Larkin did Syrinx based on the flute solo piece by Claude DeBussy. Earlier, Norman McLaren did a whole series of animations painted directly on the cellulose, one of which used the music of The Flight of the Bumble Bee.

Quite interesingly, and possibly by coincidence, the most recently shown episodes of The Simpson's featured musical clips from LVB's #6 and #9, as well as clips from Aaron Copeland's *Rodeo* and *Appalachian Spring*.

Interestingly enough, one of Norman McLaren's late animation works *Pas de Deux* very effectively used originally composed pan pipe music.



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Frank H]

Hi all,

Teresa, I’m glad that it appears you had already been introduced to Friedrich!

Chaszz, Thanks for your comments on my musings about Rembrandt etc. I'm glad I wasn't entirely wrong in my impressions.

As regards Phidias, the ancient Greeks and Romans also had a high regard for Polykleitos (Polyclitus). His statue of Hera in the Heraion, near Argos, was regarded as the equal of Phidias’ statue of Zeus at Olympia. Unfortunately no original works of Polykleitos are known to exist, only Roman copies.

I take this opportunity to add to the list of “recommended” painters:

Pieter Saenredam (1597 – 1665) Dutch, very atmospheric paintings, especially of the interiors of churches.

Camille Corot (1796 – 1875) One of the best French landscape painters.

Albert Pinkham Ryder (1847 – 1917) American. Paintings with a haunting air of mystery and legend.

Akseli Gallen-Kallela (1865 – 1931) Finnish. Born in the same year as Sibelius. Not entirely fanciful to see him as Sibelius’ equivalent in painting.

Regards to all,

Frank

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Frank H:
...As regards Phidias, the ancient Greeks and Romans also had a high regard for Polykleitos (Polyclitus). His statue of Hera in the Heraion, near Argos, was regarded as the equal of Phidias’ statue of Zeus at Olympia. Unfortunately no original works of Polykleitos are known to exist, only Roman copies...

The most important difference, of course, is that Phidias' work can still be experienced firsthand in the British Museum. This is the largest and most important surviving group of classical period Greek sculpture. Lord Elgin may have been something of a thief, but if not for him these incomparable sculptures would almost certainly be in the "lost or destroyed" category with most other great Greek works. Though it is likely that most of these pieces were actually carved by assistant sculptors, Phidias without doubt had the decisive role in their design. In the case of the Three Goddesses from the East Pediment, the design and carving of the figures and draperies, especially of the reclining goddess at the right, is so full of genius that it may argue for his actual hand. http://www.uk.digiserve.com/mentor/marbles/IMG0095b.jpg

In the museum at the ancient Olympic site at Olympia, there is a 'Hermes with the Infant Dionysus' in Praxiteles' style that is so great that it also may be an original rather than a copy. Though some scholars disagree. http://cv.uoc.es/~991_04_005_01_web/fitxer/perc16.html

When one moves from sculptures by well-known masters to great works by anonymous masters, there are a few more important originals left to see, but not a whole lot. The drop in quality is not as much as the word anonymous would suggest, because sculpture was by and large considered a craft in ancient Greece, only rarely being thought of as a fine art. So geniuses were lumped in with stone masons in the public mind, with little distinction recognized between the two, and few names surviving. Music had an even worse reputation, associated with drunkenness, prostitution, and loss of that rational control so prized by the Greeks. So that although a number of writers testify to Greek music's power to make one cry, no names at all survive of musicians (that I know of). This disregard for non-literary art seems incomprehensible to us now, given the masterpieces of sculpture and architecture which do survive. Though I think one can still detect among some literary critics of today a whiff of condescension toward music and visual art as if they were somewhat inferior. I think we at this forum all know better, as Beethoven did when he said, "Music is the highest form of philosophy."


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 03-21-2006).]

[atserriotserri]

I post it here because I think the synaesthesia topic Frank mentioned is not that recent as to reactivate it and I wasn't around here when it arised.
Last february 2nd there was a recital in Barcelona in the "Visions" cycle that intends to unite disciplines or lenguages with music, in that particular concert painting shared stage with music.
The Barcelona 216 ensemble performed:
Schoenberg Chamber Symphony n. 1 while slides of Kandinski paintings were projected on a big screen. Both, as the program said, were close friends and influenced themselves the first searching for a music beyond tonality and the latter in a painting beyond figurative referents.
Messiaen Coleurs de la cite celeste. This time were projected while slides of colours were projected, since Messiaen was synaesthetic (spelling?).
George Benjamin "At First Light" a piece for which the composer is known to look for inspiration in the "sunrise at Norman Castle" painting from Turner. That and other Turner paintings were projected.
A very nice evening.

[Roehre]

1. As to how one can love music and not like painting, as I noted in a simlar thread not too long ago, there is NOT ONE quote by a first rate great Germanic composer (Handel, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Bruckner, R. Strauss) to my knowledge, which expresses any liking for painting, sculpture or architecture, except a few enthusiastic quotes by Wagner on Holbein and Titian. This depite their well-known love of poetry and literature in general. Oh, well...

Mendelssohn was an accomplished aquarellist himself, Schönberg did paint succesfully himself, the works of the artists of the Viennese "Sezession" were definitely positively appreciated by Mahler, Berg, Schönberg, Zemlinsky.
Reger is another example, his music was positively influenced by paintings.
Brahms is said to have collected drawings (and he was a passionate collector of autographs as well, including Schubert's, Mozart's and Beethoven's)

Other -non-Germanic- composers with an interest in painting: Ciurlionis (composer AND painter), Gershwin, Rachmaninov.

[Chaszz]

Mendelssohn was an accomplished aquarellist himself, Schönberg did paint succesfully himself, the works of the artists of the Viennese "Sezession" were definitely positively appreciated by Mahler, Berg, Schönberg, Zemlinsky.
Reger is another example, his music was positively influenced by paintings.
Brahms is said to have collected drawings (and he was a passionate collector of autographs as well, including Schubert's, Mozart's and Beethoven's)

Other -non-Germanic- composers with an interest in painting: Ciurlionis (composer AND painter), Gershwin, Rachmaninov.

OK, you have corrected me, albeit two and a half years or so after the last prior entry in the thread! Better late than never!