Update on Luchesi, Joseph Haydn and Mozart

[HaydnFan]

One last comment...

Robert and Droell, you seem to be forgetting what times were like in the 18th century...

Mozart didn't watch tv...he wrote music

Mozart didn't play computer games or surf the Internet in his spare time...he wrote music

Mozart didn't have wild drinking parties with the emperor at the royal palace until 4:00 in the morning, stumble home, and was too hung over to get out of bed the next day...he wrote music

(ok, Mozart did love parties...)

It was a different world...Mozart had to write music to support his family. Given this, it is not so difficult to imagine him writing 600+ works in his lifetime. In fact, many composers were notorious for writing pieces rather quickly (Droell, I don't think complexity of the composition has anything to do with the time it took, it has more to do with the talent of the composer). Take Telemann for example, he was known to write quickly as was Schubert (as you mentioned).

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:
Schubert has around 1000 works to his credit - a great many of them songs dashed off in a single evening. And you know as well as I that his symphonies 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6, while pleasing to the ear, do not show great complexity. With both Schubert & Mendelssohn (and Beethoven) we see a fairly straight-forward development in ability, from the simple to the increasingly complex.

Mozart & Mendelssohn are a useful comparison. Both were prodigies, both toured extensively, both died at about the same age. I don't have a complete list of either man's works in front of me, but of the truncated lists as found in the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music (1980), I would guess that Mozart out-composes Mendelssohn about 3 to 1.

As an example, it seems that Mozart wrote around 20 operas, Mendelssohn only 2, with a third uncompleted. By contrast, Rossini wrote around 40, but then, Rossini wrote little else, and is known to have cannibalized his failures.

We could take Mozart, Mendelssohn & Schubert head to head with symphonies, concerti, chamber works, etc. & in every case, it's Mozart who comes out far, far ahead. Every now & then achievements like this need to be taken out for an airing. Regardless of the outcome, the results will be enriching.

Playing the numbers game will not achieve anything and is certainly no proof that Mozart didn't write these works. Few of Mozart's early symphonies reveal the great complexity you speak of in many of Schubert's symphonies either as you well know! And many of Mozart's 626 works are not major ones either. His exact contemporary Kraus who lived to the same age wrote at least 30 symphonies.

Another example is Telemann who although he lived considerably longer, year by year must have written more than Mozart - 1043 Church cantatas alone, 46 settings of the Passion, at least 20 operas, 100 concertos etc... in all the thematic catalogues of his works published in the 1980s and 1990s, has shown that Telemann actually composed over 3,000 compositions, 5 times that of Mozart, and he didn't live to 180!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Droell]

This is not how I like to see an argument develop, but we will agree that Mozart wrote 626 compositions, minus a few that crept in by mistake, plus a few that got overlooked. No more than ten or fifteen either way, I should think. We will agree he died in 1791 of tuberculosis (that's what the city's medical examiner said), and we agree that Luchesi was a third-rate hack in a job he did not deserve and who wrote nothing of consequence. Is this pretty much it?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:
This is not how I like to see an argument develop, but we will agree that Mozart wrote 626 compositions, minus a few that crept in by mistake, plus a few that got overlooked. No more than ten or fifteen either way, I should think. We will agree he died in 1791 of tuberculosis (that's what the city's medical examiner said), and we agree that Luchesi was a third-rate hack in a job he did not deserve and who wrote nothing of consequence. Is this pretty much it?

I never said Luchesi was a 3rd rate hack! I've no doubt he was a highly talented composer like many other 18th century composers whose names are now forgotten, over shadowed (unfairly in many cases) by the greater genius of Mozart and Haydn. Why you have also become fixated on Luchesi I don't know - what about Froberger, Hasse, Abel, Fasch, Fischer, Bonocini, Heinichen, Muffat, Rheinberger or Schobert for starters?

I'm not surpised you don't like an argument developing this way as it makes a nonsense of your claims, however I don't like to see an argument develop either where wild theories without a shred of evidence to back them up are put forward as fact - for example, that Mozart died in 1791 can be proven beyond doubt, yet you deny that fact and put forward a ludicrous hypothesis for which you can provide as evidence - NOTHING!

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-26-2006).]

[Agnes Selby]

Originally posted by Droell:
This is not how I like to see an argument develop, but we will agree that Mozart wrote 626 compositions, minus a few that crept in by mistake, plus a few that got overlooked. No more than ten or fifteen either way, I should think. We will agree he died in 1791 of tuberculosis (that's what the city's medical examiner said), and we agree that Luchesi was a third-rate hack in a job he did not deserve and who wrote nothing of consequence. Is this pretty much it?

---------------

Mr. Droell, Thank you for informing the world that Mozart died of tuberculosis.
Somehow this fact has escaped the scholarly world of Mozart and the world of Medicine. I bet you will get the Nobel Prize for this discovery.

Congratulations!!!!

[Droell]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:


Mr. Droell, Thank you for informing the world that Mozart died of tuberculosis.
Somehow this fact has escaped the scholarly world of Mozart and the world of Medicine. I bet you will get the Nobel Prize for this discovery.

Congratulations!!!!

Hello Agnes,

I want to read your book some day, I think it could tie up a lot of loose ends.

According to what was told to me on this site, the medical examiner signed a report in which he stated he had examined the body of Mozart and that he had died of "acute miliary fever".

It's not terribly hard to figure out what that means, nor is it hard to find the word, "miliary" in use today to describe certain medical conditions. You can find such a description, including the fact that "fever" is present 80% of the time, http://www.emedicine.com/MED/topic1476.htmhere</a>.

To put this in more detail, The American Heritage Dictionary (1992) defines "miliary" as "2. Pathology: Characterized by the presence of small skin lesions that have the size and appearance of millet seeds." (pg. 1144).

Going to Google & entering "miliary skin lesions", the very first entry is for a feline (cat) disease. The second entry, "Miliary tuberculosis presenting as skin lesions," is described as rare, and can be read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstracthere</a>.

And there is more. http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic434.htmHere</a> you may read the following: Although 1 of 3 individuals on this planet is infected with tubercle bacillus, the incidence of cutaneous TB appears low. In areas such as India or China where TB prevalence is high, cutaneous manifestations of TB (overt infection or tuberculids) are found in less than 0.1% of individuals seen in dermatology clinics.

This is to say that in areas of the world infested with TB, incidence of skin TB is so rare that it would probably not be recognized as such.


Leaving me to conclude that what the examiner was describing was essentially straightforward tuberculosis of the lungs.

I do not know why we would not start with what the examiner has left us. Presuming he was competent, it is unlikely he was mistaken. Moreover, the typical TB death chamber itself is rather grim. The patient typically coughs up much of his lungs as bloody pulp. He hacks into rags or spittoons & rather quickly the stench is overwhelming & will linger for days, or even months, after he has finally died.

This is what the medical examiner has given us. This is where any serious discussion of Mozart's death must start.

Will you nominate me for the Nobel?


[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 02-26-2006).]

[Agnes Selby]

Originally posted by Droell:
Hello Agnes,

I want to read your book some day, I think it could tie up a lot of loose ends.

According to what was told to me on this site, the medical examiner signed a report in which he stated he had examined the body of Mozart and that he had died of "acute miliary fever".

It's not terribly hard to figure out what that means, nor is it hard to find the word, "miliary" in use today to describe certain medical conditions. You can find such a description, including the fact that "fever" is present 80% of the time, http://www.emedicine.com/MED/topic1476.htmhere</a>.

To put this in more detail, The American Heritage Dictionary (1992) defines "miliary" as "2. Pathology: Characterized by the presence of small skin lesions that have the size and appearance of millet seeds." (pg. 1144).

Going to Google & entering "miliary skin lesions", the very first entry is for a feline (cat) disease. The second entry, "Miliary tuberculosis presenting as skin lesions," is described as rare, and can be read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstracthere</a>.

And there is more. http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic434.htmHere</a> you may read the following: Although 1 of 3 individuals on this planet is infected with tubercle bacillus, the incidence of cutaneous TB appears low. In areas such as India or China where TB prevalence is high, cutaneous manifestations of TB (overt infection or tuberculids) are found in less than 0.1% of individuals seen in dermatology clinics.

This is to say that in areas of the world infested with TB, incidence of skin TB is so rare that it would probably not be recognized as such.


Leaving me to conclude that what the examiner was describing was essentially straightforward tuberculosis of the lungs.

I do not know why we would not start with what the examiner has left us. Presuming he was competent, it is unlikely he was mistaken. Moreover, the typical TB death chamber itself is rather grim. The patient typically coughs up much of his lungs as bloody pulp. He hacks into rags or spittoons & rather quickly the stench is overwhelming & will linger for days, or even months, after he has finally died.

This is what the medical examiner has given us. This is where any serious discussion of Mozart's death must start.

Will you nominate me for the Nobel?


[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 02-26-2006).]

----------
Mr. Droell, Controversry about the cause of
Mozart's death has persisted for several reasons: none of his medical records survives; no autopsy was performed and laymen recounted his symptoms.

The entry in the Register of Deaths and the
testament of Dr. Guldener von Lobes need to be cautiously interpreted in view of the limitation of medical knowledge in the 18th century. Also the interpretation of milliary fever today differs from its 18th century interpretation.

I would recommend "Mozart in Person His Character and Health" by Dr. Peter J. Davies. You would find this book most interesting.

Agnes Selby.

[Droell]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:
----------
Mr. Droell, Controversry about the cause of
Mozart's death has persisted for several reasons: none of his medical records survives; no autopsy was performed and laymen recounted his symptoms.

The entry in the Register of Deaths and the
testament of Dr. Guldener von Lobes need to be cautiously interpreted in view of the limitation of medical knowledge in the 18th century. Also the interpretation of milliary fever today differs from its 18th century interpretation.

I would recommend "Mozart in Person His Character and Health" by Dr. Peter J. Davies. You would find this book most interesting.

Agnes Selby.

Dear Agnes,

I myself am the publisher of no less than four pre-modern medical books. The most recent dates from 1932. There is one from 1677 by Richard Saunders (the inspiration behind Franklin's Poor Richard's Almanac), one by Culpeper (1655) (he of the famous Herbal), and one by his friend William Lilly, first published in 1647. I supplied a glossary to Lilly, I had to research a lot of this stuff. "Acute miliary fever" as a term is both modern & straightforward. Can I interest you in a humour or two? A black, red or yellow jaundice?

It seems that researchers enter the arena long enough to find what they want, then leave with their minds made up. But the arena of Mozart's death never seems to come to a close. You can find it http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1304957here</a>, where Dr. Davies's theory, and that of many others, are discussed.

I suggest we take the various first hand accounts of Mozart's death & order them by the date they were first set down, to whom they were first submitted, and when, where & by whom they were first published.

I submit the controversy has persisted because we were originally misled. I increasingly suspect the guilty parties to be Constanze & her second husband. One of them was a witness.

Constanze's second husband seems to be an exact double of her first. Of her first husband, only ten authentic portraits are known to exist, most of them as a child. Of the second husband (who arrives in Vienna in 1793, if I can trust my "Danish"), there seems to be only one or two portraits. In the better of them, the subject has a decidedly worried look. It is a curiousity of Nissen's Mozart project that it did not extend to collecting images of his wife's first husband. I would like to see a biography of Georg Nissen prior to 1792.

I do not want to hide behind an acronym. My name is David R. Roell



[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 02-27-2006).]

[Droell]

The medical examiner's report has weight for another reason:

Questions about death are one of the most common reasons to go to court, both civil & criminal, and that's been true since Hammurabi. Medical examiners commonly testify at such procedings & are usually asked to explain their findings.

For this reason, their reports must not only be accurate, but also comprehensible to ordinary citizens. Medical terminology may have changed, but the legal records still exist & in them precise definitions of common medical terms of the day can still be found.

To write off Mozart's report and then to pile this upon all the other strange events of his life & death, simply begs us to throw it all out and start over from scratch. Apologies!

[Agnes Selby]

Originally posted by Droell:
The medical examiner's report has weight for another reason:

Questions about death are one of the most common reasons to go to court, both civil & criminal, and that's been true since Hammurabi. Medical examiners commonly testify at such procedings & are usually asked to explain their findings.

For this reason, their reports must not only be accurate, but also comprehensible to ordinary citizens. Medical terminology may have changed, but the legal records still exist & in them precise definitions of common medical terms of the day can still be found.

To write off Mozart's report and then to pile this upon all the other strange events of his life & death, simply begs us to throw it all out and start over from scratch. Apologies!

---------

Dear Sir, If you wish to read about Nissen,
you will find his biography in "Twice Perfectly Happy" by V. Sjoqvist. Published by Bay Books. The book should be available on Amazon.

Constanze's life and her difficulties
after Mozart's death, is the only full biography of Mozart's widow. It is my book, "Constanze Mozart's Beloved" also available on Amazon.
It is not a novel but a fully documented biography.

Agnes Selby.

[Hofrat]

Dear Mr. Newman;

Allow me to take a statistical stance. If we say that Mozart started to compose seriously from the age of 10, then he managed to compose for 25 years by the time he died. If we take the 626 compositions in the Koechel catalog and divide by 25 years, we discover that Mozart averaged just over 25 compositons a year. We divide 365 days a year by the 25 compositions a year, and we arrive at the number 14.6 days per composition!! Just over 2 weeks.

So, it is not a question whether Mozart could write 3 symphonies in 6 weeks; rather, could Mozart write 626 compositions in 25 years at a speed of one work every 2 weeks! That seems to be a very fast clip. It could very well be that 626 Koechel entries is a bit high.

I am a firm believer in statistics. If you do not believe me, ask my 2.65 children!


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Mr. Newman;

That seems to be a very fast clip. It could very well be that 626 Koechel entries is a bit high.

Try working that out with Telemann's 3000 works, or with Bach - Bach is not known to have written anything before he was 20 so his huge output was achieved in just 45 composing years. As well as teaching, bringing up a large family, walking large distances and many other duties he found time to write a cantata every week in addition to all his other works! I see no reason to assume Mozart was somehow incapable of what many other musicians of the time did.

------------------
'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-27-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
Try working that out with Telemann's 3000 works, or with Bach - Bach is not known to have written anything before he was 20 so his huge output was achieved in just 45 composing years. As well as teaching, bringing up a large family, walking large distances and many other duties he found time to write a cantata every week in addition to all his other works! I see no reason to assume Mozart was somehow incapable of what many other musicians of the time did.

Dear Peter;

Well, 1120 works in the BWV divided by 45 years is 24.88 works a year, which one work every 14.67 days. So, Bach had a slightly slower rate.

Now Schubert is a different story. 998 works in the Deutch listing in 18 years, which is 55.5 works a year or one composition every 6.5 days making him perhaps the most prolific composer. But Schubert did not have to make concert tours like Mozart did. I imagine it was difficult writing in a bouncing carriage.


Hofat

[Frank H]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Peter;

Well, 1120 works in the BWV divided by 45 years is 24.88 works a year, which one work every 14.67 days. So, Bach had a slightly slower rate.

I'm sorry, but I find this sort of analysis rather unconvincing.

Different people work at different rates, and the same person can work at very different speeds owing to circumstances.

For instance Berlioz says that he took a whole month to write the third movement of his "Symphonie Fantastique", but wrote the fourth movement in a single night. And Berlioz was not in general a particularly fast worker.

When seeing the prodigious amounts of work which some literary authors put out, I am not surprised at the amount that some composers managed.

I venture to suggest that the same sort of misconception underlies this sort of thinking as underlies the idea that, for instance, the pyramids of Egypt must have been built with advanced technology from alien sources. We can't see how we could have managed it, so we assume that nobody else could have done so.

I venture to suggest that Mozart might have found certain things quite easy which we would find impossible.

Frank

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Frank H:

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Peter;

Well, 1120 works in the BWV divided by 45 years is 24.88 works a year, which one work every 14.67 days. So, Bach had a slightly slower rate.

I'm sorry, but I find this sort of analysis rather unconvincing.

Different people work at different rates, and the same person can work at very different speeds owing to circumstances.

For instance Berlioz says that he took a whole month to write the third movement of his "Symphonie Fantastique", but wrote the fourth movement in a single night. And Berlioz was not in general a particularly fast worker.

When seeing the prodigious amounts of work which some literary authors put out, I am not surprised at the amount that some composers managed.

I venture to suggest that the same sort of misconception underlies this sort of thinking as underlies the idea that, for instance, the pyramids of Egypt must have been built with advanced technology from alien sources. We can't see how we could have managed it, so we assume that nobody else could have done so.

I venture to suggest that Mozart might have found certain things quite easy which we would find impossible.

Frank

Well, Frank, statistics is a rather "cut and dry" thing. Dividing the period by the number of compositions gives you the average time per work. For his whole composing life, Mozart averaged 2 weeks per composition.


Hofrat