The life, death & life of Wolfgang Mozart

[Droell]

I wrote the bulk of it a couple of weeks ago, but have only just now put a link to it on my site. Google's web crawler will hit it in a week or two at most, and as the ideas were developed on this site, my loyal detractors should have first crack at it:

http://www.astroamerica.com/mozart.htmlThe life, death & life of Wolfgang Mozart</a> (The page is formatted (headers & footers) to match the rest of my website, which might not have been a good idea.)

So, in the immortal words of the Vogon commander, Tell me how good you thought my poetry was.

David R. Roell

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Droell:
I wrote the bulk of it a couple of weeks ago, but have only just now put a link to it on my site. Google's web crawler will hit it in a week or two at most, and as the ideas were developed on this site, my loyal detractors should have first crack at it:

http://www.astroamerica.com/mozart.htmlThe life, death & life of Wolfgang Mozart</a> (The page is formatted (headers & footers) to match the rest of my website, which might not have been a good idea.)

So, in the immortal words of the Vogon commander, Tell me how good you thought my poetry was.

David R. Roell

Dear David;

I read your theory with avid interest. The problem with the duplicity that you suggest is that the 4 principals--Wolfgang, Constance, and the 2 children--have to keep their stories straight for a very long time. For a period of 35 years, Mozart-Nissen made no give-aways, Constance made no slip-ups, and the boys did no brag to a friend. That is hard to swallow. Take the case of Adolf Eichmann, who remarried his wife in Argentina and was caught by the Israelis when he brought flowers to her on their "Austrian" anniversary!


Hofrat

[Agnes Selby]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear David;

I read your theory with avid interest. The problem with the duplicity that you suggest is that the 4 principals--Wolfgang, Constance, and the 2 children--have to keep their stories straight for a very long time. For a period of 35 years, Mozart-Nissen made no give-aways, Constance made no slip-ups, and the boys did no brag to a friend. That is hard to swallow. Take the case of Adolf Eichmann, who remarried his wife in Argentina and was caught by the Israelis when he brought flowers to her on their "Austrian" anniversary!


Hofrat

-----------

More difficult still since Nissen could not
read music and needed the help of Anton Jahndl and Maximilliam Keller to help him
with every reference to Mozart's music while
organising his notes for his Mozart Biography.

However, Mr. Droell, a good piece of imagination. Now show us the proof.

Agnes Selby.

[Droell]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear David;

I read your theory with avid interest. The problem with the duplicity that you suggest is that the 4 principals--Wolfgang, Constance, and the 2 children--have to keep their stories straight for a very long time. For a period of 35 years, Mozart-Nissen made no give-aways, Constance made no slip-ups, and the boys did no brag to a friend. That is hard to swallow. Take the case of Adolf Eichmann, who remarried his wife in Argentina and was caught by the Israelis when he brought flowers to her on their "Austrian" anniversary!


Hofrat

Hello Hofrat,

Thanks for your thoughts. Who said they kept their mouths shut? All we know is that no written evidence has survived.

If daddy went away & came back as someone else, that's a big deal for a couple of years. After that, it tends to fade.

If life was not so good, and daddy went away, and then came back as someone else & life got a lot better as a result, you would tend to remember the good times you're having now, rather than the bad times you had back then. Four dead children are, all by themselves, a lot of bad times. I myself do not often recall my childhood, as it was both very dull & very lonely.

[Droell]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:



More difficult still since Nissen could not
read music and needed the help of Anton Jahndl and Maximilliam Keller to help him
with every reference to Mozart's music while
organising his notes for his Mozart Biography.

However, Mr. Droell, a good piece of imagination. Now show us the proof.

Agnes Selby.

Hello Agnes,

If Nissen was Mozart (and they do seem to resemble each other), he needed to somehow establish that he was NOT Mozart. And he needed to be as obvious & as visible as he possibly could. So of course he "can't read music" and of course he "needs help" at every step of the way & of course he makes as much fuss about it as he can.

With as little training as he claims, one might wonder why he bothered with Mozart's life at all. Just being ambassador is already a lot of work. Casanova spent time in jail, the job has its downsides. D.H. Lawrence did a wonderful job translating some German poems, even though he did not read a word of German. But he didn't make a life of it, and he was helped by his wife, who was German.

Proof takes time. Proof takes work. Proof of Einstein's theory took decades. Absolute proof for Copernicus took centuries. In Mozart's case, there is no proof for the Pork Chop Theory, there is no proof for the Bad Teeth Theory, there is no proof for any of the many theories of his death. Proof, so far as I can tell, would be a DNA test on Nissen's remains. That's not something that will come easily.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Droell:

Hello Hofrat,

Thanks for your thoughts. Who said they kept their mouths shut? All we know is that no written evidence has survived.

If daddy went away & came back as someone else, that's a big deal for a couple of years. After that, it tends to fade.

If life was not so good, and daddy went away, and then came back as someone else & life got a lot better as a result, you would tend to remember the good times you're having now, rather than the bad times you had back then. Four dead children are, all by themselves, a lot of bad times. I myself do not often recall my childhood, as it was both very dull & very lonely.

Dear Droell;

Well, there still are a few things that bother me about your theory. The first, would not Mozart be recognized by the Austrian court? Mozart was a high profile charactor. He would be well known, and at that time, the Austrian government had a secret police. I would think someone would have caught on.

Second, Constance was also a high profile charactor. Not only was she Mozart's widow, she was a well known singer and she was from a very famous musical family, the von Weber's. Her marriage to a Danish diplomat would have been a media event. Again, I would think someone would have noticed the resemblance between Mozart and Nissen.

And third, I return to the children. If my father went away for a while and then came back, my brothers and I would have shouted this all over creation regardless of how much mommy and daddy told us that this was our little secret!! Let us remember, daddy really did not "go away." He died. His "return" would have been a down right miracle to a child of the 18th century.


Hovrat

[HaydnFan]

Droell, do you hear what you are saying? Go back and read some of your posts...

[Droell]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Droell;

Well, there still are a few things that bother me about your theory. The first, would not Mozart be recognized by the Austrian court? Mozart was a high profile charactor. He would be well known, and at that time, the Austrian government had a secret police. I would think someone would have caught on.

Second, Constance was also a high profile charactor. Not only was she Mozart's widow, she was a well known singer and she was from a very famous musical family, the von Weber's. Her marriage to a Danish diplomat would have been a media event. Again, I would think someone would have noticed the resemblance between Mozart and Nissen.

And third, I return to the children. If my father went away for a while and then came back, my brothers and I would have shouted this all over creation regardless of how much mommy and daddy told us that this was our little secret!! Let us remember, daddy really did not "go away." He died. His "return" would have been a down right miracle to a child of the 18th century.


Hovrat

Hello Hofrat,

I frankly expect that a lot of people did, in fact, know who this character was. That's what's amazing about it, it's so blatantly obvious. An open secret. Not a thing the Habsburgs could do about it, however. As ambassador, Mozart is Danish property. This supercedes his nominal Austrian citizenship. It also makes him a first-class spy. And again, I expect everyone knew it.

Constanze's marriage to a Danish-born, Danish diplomat would have landed them both in jail. Again, the suspicion would be espionage. To stop that from happening, the Danes would have packed Nissen back to Copenhagen, in disgrace. They would have done this as soon as their relationship became evident. The rules for this sort of thing are quite strict. Casanova skirted 'round this much of his life (bad choice of words).

As for the children, who says they were told that daddy died? The story given to the adults & the story given to the children do not need to match. Mozart was often away from his family. The kids had probably been told all sorts of stories over the years.

And to answer the next post, yes, I've been all over the map on this the last several months. I've done what I always do: Kick an idea around until it takes shape. I may change my mind again.

The problem we have is that Constanze's second husband, the Danish ambassador is, in fact, Mozart's identical twin. That's why we have pictures in our passports & on our driver's licenses, to identify me from my four brothers. That he then, by some miracle, takes up with Mozart's widow, writes the first biography of Mozart, and finally dies in Mozart's hometown of Salzburg just makes it all the more interesting.


[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 03-14-2006).]

[erk]

Originally posted by Droell:
I wrote the bulk of it a couple of weeks ago, but have only just now put a link to it on my site. Google's web crawler will hit it in a week or two at most, and as the ideas were developed on this site, my loyal detractors should have first crack at it:

http://www.astroamerica.com/mozart.htmlThe life, death & life of Wolfgang Mozart</a> (The page is formatted (headers & footers) to match the rest of my website, which might not have been a good idea.)

So, in the immortal words of the Vogon commander, Tell me how good you thought my poetry was.

David R. Roell

This must be a joke! As a Danish citizen (and historian) I would like to ask just one question: If this Mozart story was true, what should we do with the real Georg Nicolaus Nissen? In this country we can track him back to his birth in 1761, we can prove his study of law at University of Copenhagen from 1778. And we have undisputable evidence of his diplomatic career starting in 1790 in Rendsburg (Germany) and in 1793 he came to Vienna as first secretary and later chargé d'affaires.

This leaves only two possibilities: Either Mozart prepared his comeback very well indeed with frequent travels to Copenhagen in the period between 1778 and 1790 to establish his new identity. Or a lot of people in Denmark must have been involved in a secret plot to get rid of the real Mr. Nissen and substitute him with Mozart.

Both options are, of course, completely absurd.

[Droell]

Originally posted by erk:
This must be a joke! As a Danish citizen (and historian) I would like to ask just one question: If this Mozart story was true, what should we do with the real Georg Nicolaus Nissen? In this country we can track him back to his birth in 1761, we can prove his study of law at University of Copenhagen from 1778. And we have undisputable evidence of his diplomatic career starting in 1790 in Rendsburg (Germany) and in 1793 he came to Vienna as first secretary and later chargé d'affaires.

This leaves only two possibilities: Either Mozart prepared his comeback very well indeed with frequent travels to Copenhagen in the period between 1778 and 1790 to establish his new identity. Or a lot of people in Denmark must have been involved in a secret plot to get rid of the real Mr. Nissen and substitute him with Mozart.

Both options are, of course, completely absurd.

Hello Erk,

Thanks for your note. This is precisely the kind of information I need. We have only one problem: Someone who looks exactly like Mozart comes to Vienna & marries Mozart's widow. If the documentation you cite is solid, there would be no problem dismissing my silly ideas.

I caution that phony credentials would be necessary to establish a phony identity. In other words, when Nissen was first presented to the Hapsburg court, he would of course have presented his credentials, and they would, of course, have appeared genuine.

I am now 54 years old & have been unsettled most of my life. Unsettled people have lots of interesting experiences. I once carried more than one passport, though I am a citizen of only one country. I have slipped over borders without having my papers checked. I once met a man, in an office in London, who claimed he could provide phony British passports, for a not inconsiderable fee. One of my friends, a man whose original name was Juan Carlos Ortiz (since the early 1980's he has had a very different name) once manipulated the computers at the University of Southern California (USC), in Los Angeles, to get himself a Bachelor of Science in Journalism. He is in fact a native of New Jersey (on the other side of the country) who never spent a single day in college.

Having lived among people who misrepresent themselves, having been one myself from time to time, I do not find anything I've alleged about Mozart/Nissen to be all that difficult to have done. Certainly not difficult for Mozart, if he had a mind to do it. He is both a traveler with a wide circle of friends & acquaintances scattered throughout Europe, as well as a stranger in his own country, someone who was at odds with the Hapsburg court & not well-liked among his fellow musicians. This means that it would have been easy for him to have "walked out" of the life he had, and take up an entirely new life. The one connection he had to the world, it seems to me, was his family. And that was exactly what he kept. But this doesn't mean it happened as I imagined it. That I can imagine does not mean it happened. Mozart remains a puzzle.

Regrettably, disproving my idea will take work. I allege the real Georg Nikolaus Nissen died as a child. Presuming his parents were more or less stationary, he died in or near his birthplace. Municipal records should have his original death certificate. If not, a search of the local parish records should turn up both his baptismal records & his requiem mass. This, of course, will not prove that Mozart became Nissen, only that someone, possibly Mozart, did.

Of course, if Nissen's parents were more or less sedentary, if Nissen grew up in his hometown, if, instead of a requiem mass, confirmation records are found at the local parish church, my theory gets thrown out the window. I almost said, if there were records of his wedding in Denmark, but, of course, Nissen didn't seem to get on with the local girls. That already raises red flags, but I digress.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:
I caution that phony credentials would be necessary to establish a phony identity. In other words, when Nissen was first presented to the Hapsburg court, he would of course have presented his credentials, and they would, of course, have appeared genuine.

You don't answer Erk's point - what happened to the Nissen born in 1761? He can't have died as a child if he studied law at University of Copenhagen from 1778! And what about his diplomatic career starting in 1790 in Rendsburg?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-15-2006).]

[erk]

"Of course, if Nissen's parents were more or less sedentary, if Nissen grew up in his hometown, if, instead of a requiem mass, confirmation records are found at the local parish church, my theory gets thrown out the window. I almost said, if there were records of his wedding in Denmark, but, of course, Nissen didn't seem to get on with the local girls. That already raises red flags, but I digress."

Re your speculation that Nissen died as a child:

Georg Nikolaus Nissen was born 22. January 1761, son of merchant Jens Nissen, but due to financial difficulties he was placed in care of his uncle (his mother’s brother), Vilhad Kristian Zoega, who raised him with his own son, Georg Zoega (1755-1809), who later became an archaeologist and art historian in Rome. He, too, was a student at the University of Copenhagen around 1778. And he, too, lived in Vienna for a time.

A few details: On his return to Denmark Nissen worked as a censor of Copenhagen newspapers (those were the days before the now famous Danish freedom of expression!) and furthermore he was involved in a literary society. Both facts indicate that his native language must have been Danish, and not very likely an Austrian citizen impersonating Nissen.



[/b][/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by erk (edited 03-15-2006).]

[Droell]

Originally posted by erk:

"Of course, if Nissen's parents were more or less sedentary, if Nissen grew up in his hometown, if, instead of a requiem mass, confirmation records are found at the local parish church, my theory gets thrown out the window. I almost said, if there were records of his wedding in Denmark, but, of course, Nissen didn't seem to get on with the local girls. That already raises red flags, but I digress."

Re your speculation that Nissen died as a child:

Georg Nikolaus Nissen was born 22. January 1761, son of merchant Jens Nissen, but due to financial difficulties he was placed in care of his uncle (his mother’s brother), Vilhad Kristian Zoega, who raised him with his own son, Georg Zoega (1755-1809), who later became an archaeologist and art historian in Rome. He, too, was a student at the University of Copenhagen around 1778. And he, too, lived in Vienna for a time.

A few details: On his return to Denmark Nissen worked as a censor of Copenhagen newspapers (those were the days before the now famous Danish freedom of expression!) and furthermore he was involved in a literary society. Both facts indicate that his native language must have been Danish, and not very likely an Austrian citizen impersonating Nissen.

Hello Erk,

I can see your point & I like & respect it, but it leaves me more puzzled than ever. The son of a poor merchant, sent to his (presumably richer) uncle, who provides him a college education. Okay so far.

What then makes this man qualified to be the ambassador, age 32 or so, to one of the two most powerful courts in the world? Why would he leave that post (a pretty good one, I would think) at age 51, to take up a lowly censor's job? Did he leave Vienna in disgrace?

I had thought Mozart scored this position because of earlier favors he had secretly done for the Danish court, so that making him the new ambassador would be a good fit for both parties. If that was the case, then of course he was going to be given first class, albeit phony, papers to present to the Viennese court. If the Hapsburgs knew, would they have protested? Only if they were not guilty of the same themselves.

Now you make me wonder if we have not got a Bacon - Shakespeare thing going on. So, to the best of your knowledge, why was Nissen qualified, at his age, to be ambassador, and why did he later leave that post to become a censor? Was he Chief Censor, and would that have been an appropriate position for a man of his ability? As background, what about Napoleon?

[erk]

Originally posted by Droell:
Hello Erk,

I can see your point & I like & respect it, but it leaves me more puzzled than ever. The son of a poor merchant, sent to his (presumably richer) uncle, who provides him a college education. Okay so far.

What then makes this man qualified to be the ambassador, age 32 or so, to one of the two most powerful courts in the world? Why would he leave that post (a pretty good one, I would think) at age 51, to take up a lowly censor's job? Did he leave Vienna in disgrace?

I had thought Mozart scored this position because of earlier favors he had secretly done for the Danish court, so that making him the new ambassador would be a good fit for both parties. If that was the case, then of course he was going to be given first class, albeit phony, papers to present to the Viennese court. If the Hapsburgs knew, would they have protested? Only if they were not guilty of the same themselves.

Now you make me wonder if we have not got a Bacon - Shakespeare thing going on. So, to the best of your knowledge, why was Nissen qualified, at his age, to be ambassador, and why did he later leave that post to become a censor? Was he Chief Censor, and would that have been an appropriate position for a man of his ability? As background, what about Napoleon?

My dear mr Droell! The basic rules of scientific historical investigation goes like this: If you have new theories, new claims or assumptions about historical events or people, the burden of proof lies with you. In other words you have to prove everybody else wrong. We don't have to prove you wrong.

So questioning the facts doesn't help your case. You still have to prove that Mozart and Nisse were one person. So far all you can produce is the fact (questionable) that they look very much alike.

As to questions and "ad hoc" explanations:

Mr Nissen started his career as "first secretary" and then "chargé d'affaires" - not ambassador. In other words a rather ordinary civil servant carrer. After law school he started his career in public service at the age of 20.

Retiring from the diplomatic career it would be perfectly normal to be assigned some retirement position in the royal administration. Being a censor would mean little work and a handsome pay.

Constance and Georg bought houses in Copenhagen and the adresses indicate that they were not in financial trouble!

And by the way, it was not a particular rich uncle. He was a priest, but that is a piece of information that I have deliberately kept secret because I am not sure you can handle it Obviously being a priest and responsible for the church book records of births and deaths he would be an ideal choice in a conspiracy to substitute Georg Nikolaus with Wolfgang Amadeus!!

Kind regards

Erik



[This message has been edited by erk (edited 03-15-2006).]

[Frank H]

Originally posted by Droell:
We have only one problem: Someone who looks exactly like Mozart comes to Vienna & marries Mozart's widow.

Regrettably, disproving my idea will take work.

“Someone who looks exactly like Mozart comes to Vienna & marries Mozart's widow.”

Herein lies a remarkable assertion. Mr.Roell clearly claims to know EXACTLY what Mozart looked like, and what Nissen looked like – both of which are claims that no one else, as far as I know, has ever made. I can only assume that Mr. Roell has received super-natural help in this.

Mr. Roell bases his assertion on comparing two portraits. As far as I can see, these two portraits do not prove his assertion.

Both Mozart and Nissen lived in a pre-photography era, when all we have to go on are various paintings and drawings of variable quality. When we consider the wide variation in appearance of Mozart in his portraits, the folly of claiming “exact” likeness from any such evidence is obvious.

Incidentally, such variations in appearance in portraits are typical of those of all people of the time – just think of those of Beethoven – so please don’t let anyone suggest that this is all down to a conspiracy to mislead people over Mozart’s appearance.

Variations in portrait appearance are partly due to the fact that many artists, even those who made their living as portraitists, were actually not very good at capturing the exact likenesses of their subjects’ faces. This usually didn’t matter too much, so long as they managed to make their sitters look more attractive than they actually were.

It’s quite possible that Mozart and Nissen were similar in physical type. The evidence suggests that the Mozart marriage was by and large a happy one, and that Wolfgang and Constanze were very much in love. The fact that she would have chosen as a second husband, someone with a strong physical resemblance to Wolfgang is no surprise at all.

Incidentally, regardless of the standard of portraiture, it is of course possible to point out strong resemblances between different people. That is because, so long as we don't insist on EXACT likeness, most people closely resemble many others. I am sure that anyone could find many people in the world bearing a strong resemblance to Mr. Roell. And I am sure that those determined to “prove” that Mr. Roell was actually someone else, and that this has been covered up by the CIA, FBI, Al Qaeda, Opus Dei, McDonald’s, the Freemasons, etc.etc., will find evidence to support their theories.

Of course, such theories will be couched in ways which make them, "regrettably" either impossible to disprove, or else take up so much time and effort to do so that no one with any sense would bother to.

[Incidentally, it is actually impossible to absolutely disprove anything apart from mathematical formulations, a fact of which conspiracy theorists take full advantage]

Frank

[This message has been edited by Frank H (edited 03-15-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Frank H (edited 03-15-2006).]