Josephine Andante Favori theme

[Anthina]

What do you think about the theory the Andante Favori theme paraphrasing the name "Josephine"? That very rhythmic figure can also be found in String Quartett Opus 95 and as main theme in "An die ferne Geliebte".

The rhythm is not "Therese" or "Theresia", nor "Antonia"-it definitly would fit "Josephine".

But is there any evidence for that theory?

Further in 1816 both Beethoven and Josephine were in Baden and she was definitely next to him-if the theory makes sense-why is the song called "To the DISTANT Loved One" then? Was she only close to him in his fantasy?

In case there is evidence of the connection between Josephine and the rhythm-wow-another genius draw.

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*~Ja, was haben's da scho wieder gmacht, Beethoven?~*

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Anthina:
What do you think about the theory the Andante Favori theme paraphrasing the name "Josephine"? That very rhythmic figure can also be found in String Quartett Opus 95 and as main theme in "An die ferne Geliebte".

The rhythm is not "Therese" or "Theresia", nor "Antonia"-it definitly would fit "Josephine".

But is there any evidence for that theory?

Further in 1816 both Beethoven and Josephine were in Baden and she was definitely next to him-if the theory makes sense-why is the song called "To the DISTANT Loved One" then? Was she only close to him in his fantasy?

In case there is evidence of the connection between Josephine and the rhythm-wow-another genius draw.

Dear Anthina;

Yes, I have heard this theory before. You can hear the "Josephina Motif" in other works too, namely:

1. Sonata for piano and violin opus 96 (first movement, second theme).
2. Appassionata (last movement).


Hofrat

[Michael]

Beethoven made use of rhythmic four-note cells to an almost obsessive degree, the more obvious examples being the Fifth Symphony and the Fourth Piano Concerto, not forgetting the scherzo of the "Harp" string quartet. But even in the very early little four-hand sonatina, Opus 6, the famous da-da-da-DA is there from the start. Surely this was before he ever heard of Josephine?

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 02-23-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
Beethoven made use of rhythmic four-note cells to an almost obsessive degree, the more obvious examples being the Fifth Symphony and the Fourth Piano Concerto, not forgetting the scherzo of the "Harp" string quartet. But even in the very early little four-hand sonatina, Opus 6, the famous da-da-da-DA is there from the start. Surely this was before he ever heard of Josephine?

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 02-23-2006).]

We had the first movement from op6 here at the main site a long time ago as an mp3. You are right, the familiar 4 note theme is there as clear as day. However i wouldn't spend too much time associating names with themes - Jo-se-phine could also be Ro-d-ney!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-25-2006).]

[Michael]

You're pushing it a bit, Rod. How about the Coriolan overture? Rod-ney! Rod-ney!

[Frank H]

Originally posted by Michael:
Beethoven made use of rhythmic four-note cells to an almost obsessive degree, the more obvious examples being the Fifth Symphony and the Fourth Piano Concerto, not forgetting the scherzo of the "Harp" string quartet. But even in the very early little four-hand sonatina, Opus 6, the famous da-da-da-DA is there from the start. Surely this was before he ever heard of Josephine?

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 02-23-2006).]

"Four-note cells" also pervade the first movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto #25 in C, K503, to an almost obsessive degree. If I remember correctly, other similarities have also been noted between this work and Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto.

K503 is, I believe, a rather under-rated work. It may well be Mozart's greatest concerto.

Frank

[Droell]

My research suggests this is the sort of thing Ludwig would have found of interest. If so, he could have made sophisticated use of it. Recently I was surprised to find the opening motif of the famous Funeral March to be boo-hoo-hoo. (Or, to be precise, a short inward take of air, followed by boo-hoo: the very first three notes.) He then uses this motif throughout the movement, in many ways.

This brings up the question: Is the Funeral March powerful because Beethoven encodes this fundamental physical response throughout it?

The other interesting point is that Beethoven never, never, never says a word about games like this, unless the work cannot be played properly without it. The opening measures of the third movement of Les Adieux sonata cannot be played properly unless you know the story behind it, hence Beethoven's own title.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Droell:
[B]My research suggests this is the sort of thing Ludwig would have found of interest. If so, he could have made sophisticated use of it. Recently I was surprised to find the opening motif of the famous Funeral March to be boo-hoo-hoo. (Or, to be precise, a short inward take of air, followed by boo-hoo: the very first three notes.) He then uses this motif throughout the movement, in many ways.
[b]

Well I think the use of a 3 note motif must be quite common in music, Handel uses a repeated 3 note theme in his famous 'Dead March' from the oratorio Saul.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Droell]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I think the use of a 3 note motif must be quite common in music, Handel uses a repeated 3 note theme in his famous 'Dead March' from the oratorio Saul.

Yes, indeed. Three note motifs are as common in music as four-letter words are in English!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
You're pushing it a bit, Rod. How about the Coriolan overture? Rod-ney! Rod-ney!

Hey you discovered my secret dedication. Well me an Ludvig go back a long way you know...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin