Beethoven 'Pastoral' Symphony - Berlioz Comments

[Casey]

Originally posted by robert newman:
posted 02-21-2006 05:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Bobbie Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Dear Robert,
Bobby,

You write -

'You are surely not suggesting that a renagade Jesuit priest , the so called founder of the Illuminati remained a practicing Jesuit and a communicating member of the Catholic church after having joined this proscribed organization ?
With great respect , I think you have been reading too many old fashioned protestant text books'.

In reply, the renegade Jesuit priest of whom you speak did not 'join' the Illuminati. He was actually its founder.

Secondly, it was the Pope himself who banned the Jesuits - not the Protestants or anyone else. They were illegal. Nobody wanted them. And if you read the list of countries from which they were banned plus the list of charges made against them by the heads of those countries, you will see that their ban and their dissolution had nothing to do with Protestants and everything to do with the fact that they were a bunch of bad people.

Power corrupts. They had great power. It corrupted them. That is why the entire Christian world agreed, starting with Rome, to banish them. Such a view comes not from any old books either for or against the Catholic Church but from pages of ANY history (Catholic, non-Catholic and those not at lal interested in religion) on the subject. If you wish to deny such things you may as well deny that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. That's your privilege.
But at the time and in the period under examination (the lifetime of Beethoven) such facts are hardly disputed by anyone. And I see no fact in your letter that makes me think differently.

Regards

Robert

Okay, this thread has gone way off topic, but here's my reply:

The Jesuits were banned by the Pope not because they were "bad" but because the leaders of many countries were upset that they were powerful, and the Pope had little choice but to comply, though he certainly shouldn't of!

For example, some Jesuits were involved with educating and converting the natives in European controlled areas in the Americas, while the European conquerers wanted the natives more as slaves than educated people. Cannot have educated slaves...

Secondly, you are trying to draw a connection btwn. the Jesuits and the Illuminati because a renegade former Jesuit founded the Illuminati. So does that mean that the Catholic Church is responsible for Satanism when former Catholics join it? Or a Protestant church responsible when a protestant joins satanism? About as good a connection as the one you claim btwn. Jesuits and the Illuminati.

I wonder if it was the Illumninati behind Luchesi making music to be passed off as Mozart and Haydn's too. And therefore the Jesuits are behind it. therefore the Catholic Church. Oh no, that makes no sense, because Italians were Catholics too.

[Casey]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm struggling to find a connection with the Pastoral symphony! If a post doesn't appear at first, try the refresh button.

I'm thinking...the illuminati was behind Luchesi, and Beethoven was supposedly taught by Luchesi, so Beethoven couldn't possibly have written the Pastoral without the help of the Illuminati.

[robert newman]

Peter is right that this thread (which should be focusing on the Pastoral Symphony) has strayed in to discussions about the Illuminati.
Thanks for trying to bring these issues back to Beethoven.

Ries, Neefe and Simrock (all at Bonn in 1784) were members of what we call the 'Illuminati'. There were others but they don't really concern us here. And, in 1784 (when Beethoven was a teenager) an inventory was made which has resulted in many works ending up being attributed to Mozart in particular which were not attributed as such at the time.

This occurred during a time when Luchesi was absent, in Italy. I do not say that these gross irregularities were the product of an Illuminati attempt to discredit Luchesi or to credit Mozart. I simply say that such strange irregularities occurred which had the net effect of crediting Mozart with works which were never at Bonn credited to him. And attempts were made to remove all traces of the true composer of these works and to hide them at Modena and other places.

Whether Luchesi was himself involved with the Illuminati is an interesting question and one I don't know the answer to. His brother in law (Ferdinand D'Anthoine) is named as a member also. But this does not really help us since we know that D'Anthoine was only a cover for much of Luchesi's own 'private' compositions.

The issue (as I see it) is simply this - did Mozart and Haydn really compose those works which are today at Modena in their name and which undoubtedly came from Bonn. The other issues (such as the role of the Illuminati, Luchesi's motives for staying largely a peripheral figure), etc. etc. are interesting but not (to me) the key issue.

Beethoven seems to have avoided these intrigues and I'm glad of that.

Robert