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Beethoven 'Eroica' - Berlioz Coments

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    Beethoven 'Eroica' - Berlioz Coments


    It is a serious mistake to truncate the title which the composer provided for this symphony. It reads: 'Heroic symphony to commemorate the memory of a great man'. As will be seen, the subject here is not battles or triumphal marches, as many, misled by the abbreviated title, might expect, but rather deep and serious thoughts, melancholy memories, ceremonies of imposing grandeur and sadness, in short a funeral oration for a hero. I know few examples in music of a style where sorrow has been so unfailingly conveyed in forms of such purity and such nobility of expression.

    The first movement is in triple time and in a tempo which is almost that of a waltz, yet nothing could be more serious and more dramatic than this allegro. The energetic theme on which it is built is not at first presented in its complete form. Contrary to normal practice, the composer has initially provided only a glimpse of his melodic idea, which is only revealed in its full power after a few bars’ introduction. The rhythmic writing is extremely striking in the frequent use of syncopation and, through the stress on the weak beat, the insertion of bars in duple time into bars in triple time. When to this irregular rhythm some harsh dissonances are added, as we find towards the middle of the development section, where the first violins play a high F natural against an E natural, the fifth of the chord of A minor, it is difficult not to shudder at this depiction of indomitable fury. This is the voice of despair and almost of rage. Yet one wonders, Why this despair ? Why this rage? The reason for it is not obvious. Then in the next bar the orchestra suddenly calms down, as though, exhausted by its own outburst, its strength was abruptly deserting it. A gentler passage follows, which evokes all the most painful feelings that memory can stir in the mind. It is impossible to describe or merely to indicate the multiplicity of melodic and harmonic guises in which Beethoven presents his theme. We will only mention an extremely odd case, which has caused a great deal of argument. The French publisher corrected it in his edition of the score, in the belief it was an engraving error, but after further enquiry the passage was reinstated. The first and second violins on their own are playing tremolando a major second (B flat, A flat), part of the chord of the seventh on the dominant of E flat, when a horn gives the impression of having made a mistake by coming in four bars too soon, and rudely intrudes with the beginning of the main theme which consists only of the notes E flat, G, E flat, B flat. The strange effect produced by this melody built on the three notes of the tonic chord against the two discordant notes of the dominant chord can easily be imagined, even though the distance between the parts greatly softens the clash. But just as the ear is about to protest against this anomaly, an energetic tutti cuts off the horn, ends piano on the tonic chord and gives way to the entry of the cellos which then play the complete theme with the appropriate harmony. Taking a detached view it is difficult to find a serious justification for this musical caprice. But it is said that the author attached much importance to it. It is even related that at the first rehearsal of the symphony, M. Ries who was present stopped the orchestra and exclaimed: "Too early, too early, the horn is wrong!". As a reward for his indiscretion, he was roundly taken to task by a furious Beethoven.

    However you look at it, if that was really what Beethoven wanted, and if there is any truth in the anecdotes which circulate on the subject, it must be admitted that this whim is an absurdity.

    There is no comparable oddity in the rest of the score. The funeral march is a drama in its own right. It is like a translation of Virgil’s beautiful lines on the funeral procession of the young Pallas:

    Multaque praeterea Laurentis praemia pugnae
    Adgerat, et longo praedam jubet ordine duci.
    Post bellator equus, positis insignibus, Aethon
    It lacrymans, guttisque humectat grandibus ora.

    The ending in particular is deeply moving. The theme of the march returns, but now in a fragmented form, interspersed with silences, and only accompanied by three pizzicato notes in the double basses. When these tatters of the sad melody, left on their own, bare, broken and lifeless, have collapsed one after the other onto the tonic, the wind instruments utter a final cry, the last farewell of the warriors to their companion in arms, and the whole orchestra fades away on a pianissimo pause.

    Following normal practice the third movement is entitled scherzo. In Italian the word means play, or jest. At first sight it is hard to see how this kind of music can find a place in this epic composition. It has to be heard to be understood. The piece does indeed have the rhythm and tempo of a scherzo; these are games, but real funeral games, constantly darkened by thoughts of death, games of the kind that the warriors of the Iliad would celebrate around the tombs of their leaders. Even in his most imaginative orchestral developments Beethoven has been able to preserve the serious and sombre colouring, the deep sadness which of course had to predominate in such a subject.

    The finale is just a continuation of the same poetical idea. There is a very striking example of orchestral writing at the beginning, which illustrates the kind of effect that can be produced by juxtaposing different instrumental timbres. The violins play a B flat, which is immediately taken up by flutes and oboes as a kind of echo. Although the sound is played at the same dynamic level, at the same speed and with the same force, the dialogue produces such a great difference between the notes that the nuance between them might be likened to the contrast between blue and purple. Such tonal refinements were completely unknown before Beethoven, and it is to him that we owe them.

    For all its great variety this finale is nevertheless built on a simple fugal theme. Besides a profusion of ingenious details the composer develops on top of it two other themes, one of which is exceptionally beautiful. The melody is as it were derived from a different one, but its shape conceals this. On the contrary it is much more touching and expressive, far more graceful than the original theme, which has rather the character of a bass line and serves this function very well. This melody returns shortly before the end, in a slower tempo and with different harmonies which further enhance its sad character. The hero costs many a tear. After these final regrets devoted to his memory the poet abandons the elegiac tone and intones with rapture a hymn of glory. Though rather brief this conclusion is very brilliant and provides a fitting crown to the musical monument.

    Beethoven may have written more striking works than this symphony, and several of his other compositions make a greater impact on the public. But it has to be admitted that the Eroica symphony is so powerful in its musical thought and execution, its style so energetic and so constantly elevated, and its form so poetic, that it is the equal of the composer’s very greatest works. Whenever this symphony is performed I am overcome with feelings of deep and as it were antique sadness; yet the public seems hardly moved. One must feel sorry for the predicament of the artist: though fired with such enthusiasm he has not managed to make himself intelligible even to an élite audience and make it rise it to the level of his own inspiration. This is all the more regrettable as in other circumstances this same audience warms up to the composer and shares his emotion and tears. It is fired with an ardent and genuine passion for some of his compositions, which may be equally worthy of admiration but are nevertheless no more beautiful than this work. It appreciates at its true worth the allegretto in A minor of the seventh symphony, the allegretto scherzando of the eighth, the finale of the fifth, the scherzo of the ninth. It even appears to be deeply moved by the funeral march of this symphony - the Eroica. But as far as the first movement is concerned, there is no escaping the truth, and I have observed this for more than twenty years: the public listens to it with composure, regards it as a well crafted and quite powerful piece, but beyond that … nothing. There is no point in philosophising. It is no good saying to oneself that the same has always been true everywhere for all artistic creations of an elevated kind, that the springs of poetic emotion are hidden and difficult to fathom, that the feeling for beauty which some individuals possess is completely absent from the masses, even that it cannot possibly be otherwise… None of this provides any consolation or can appease the anger - call it instinctive, involuntary, even absurd if you like - which fills one’s heart at the sight of a misunderstood masterpiece, of a composition of such nobility which the crowd observes but does not see, listens to but does not hear, and allows to pass by with hardly a sideways glance, as though dealing with something mediocre or ordinary. It is dreadful to have to say to oneself with total certainty: what I find beautiful is beauty itself for me, but may not be so for my best friend. Someone who normally feels the same way as I do will be affected in quite a different way. It may be that the work which sends me into raptures, makes me shiver, and moves me to tears, leaves him cold, or even annoys and irritates him…

    The majority of great poets have no feeling for music and only enjoy melodies of a trivial or childish character. Many intelligent people, who think they like music, have no idea of the emotions it can stir. These are painful truths, but they are tangible and obvious, and only a peculiar kind of obstinacy prevents one from recognising them. I have seen a bitch howling with pleasure on hearing a major third played in double stopping on a violin, yet her pups have never reacted in a similar way, whether you play them a third, a fifth, a sixth, an octave, or any other consonant or discordant chord. Whatever the composition of the public, it always reacts to great musical conceptions in the same way as that bitch and her pups. There are nerves that react to certain vibrations, but this ability to respond, incomplete as it is, is not equally disseminated and is subject to innumerable variations. It follows that it is virtual lunacy to rely on some artistic means rather than others to affect it and that the best a composer can do is to remain blindly true to his own feelings and resign himself in advance to all the whims of fortune. One day I was walking out of the Conservatoire with three or four dilettanti after a performance of the Choral symphony.

    'How do you find this work'? one of them asked me.

    'Immense! magnificent! overwhelming'!

    'That is strange, I was bored stiff. And what about you'? he added, turning to an Italian…

    'Well, I find this unintelligible, or rather intolerable, there is no melody… But here are some papers talking about it, and let us see what they say:

    'Beethoven’s Choral symphony is the pinnacle of modern music; art has yet to produce anything comparable for the nobility of its style, the grandeur of the design and the finish of the details.

    (Another paper) - 'Beethoven’s Choral symphony is a monstrosity'.

    (Another paper) - 'This work is not completely barren of ideas, but they are poorly presented and the sum total is incoherent and devoid of charm'.

    (Another paper) - 'Beethoven’s Choral symphony has some wonderful passages, but the composer was obviously short of inspiration. As his exhausted imagination let him down he had to devote his energies, sometimes to good effect, to making up through craftsmanship what he was lacking in inspiration. The few themes found in the work are superbly treated and set out in a perfectly clear and logical sequence. In short, it is a very interesting work by a tired genius'.

    Where is the truth, and where is the error? Everywhere and nowhere. Everybody is right. What to someone seems beautiful is not so for someone else, simply because one person was moved and the other remained indifferent, and the former experienced profound delight while the latter acute boredom. What can be done about this?… nothing… but it is dreadful; I would rather be mad and believe in absolute beauty ''

    Hector Berlioz


    #2
    Dear Robert;

    Here is a critique from *The Harmonicon*, London, April 1829:

    "The 'Heroic Symphony' contains much to admire, but it is difficult to keep up admiration during three long quarters of an hour. It is infinitely too lengthy.... If this symphony is not abridged by some means, it will soon fall into disuse."

    Well, someone certainly erred there!!


    Hofrat
    "Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"

    Comment


      #3
      Dear Robert;

      The English were very harsh on the length of Beethoven's symphonies. *The Harmonicon*, London, June 1823:

      "Opinions are much divided concerning the merits of the Pastoral Symphony, though very few venture to deny that it is much too long. The Andante alone is upwards of a quarter hour in performance, and, being a series of repetitions, might be subjected to abridgment without any violation of justice, either to the composeror or his hearers."

      Again in April 1825, the same journal wrote that length was not strength:

      "We find Beethoven's 9th Symphony to be precisely an hour five minutes long: a fearful period indeed, which puts the muscles and the lungs of the band, and the patience of the audience to a severe trial.... The last movement, a chorus, is heterogeneous. What relation it bears to the symphony we could not make out; and here, as well as other parts, the want of intelligible design is too apparent."

      And when they get a short symphony, do you think the English would shut up! Not on June 1827:

      "Beethoven's 8th Symphony depends wholly on its last movement for what applause it obtains; the rest is eccentric without being amusing, and laborious without effect."

      I guess with critics, you can never win!!


      Hofrat
      "Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"

      Comment


        #4
        > It is a serious mistake to truncate the title which the composer provided for this symphony. It reads: 'Heroic symphony to commemorate the memory of a great man'. As will be seen, the subject here is not battles or triumphal marches, as many, misled by the abbreviated title, might expect, but rather deep and serious thoughts, melancholy memories, ceremonies of imposing grandeur and sadness, in short > a funeral oration for a hero. I know few examples in music of a style where sorrow has been so unfailingly conveyed in forms of such purity and such nobility of expression.

        The MEMORY of a great man? That suggests that the subject has already died, doesn't it? Napoleon was still alive when this was written.

        ------------------
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        To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
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        To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by sjwenger:
          > It is a serious mistake to truncate the title which the composer provided for this symphony. It reads: 'Heroic symphony to commemorate the memory of a great man'. As will be seen, the subject here is not battles or triumphal marches, as many, misled by the abbreviated title, might expect, but rather deep and serious thoughts, melancholy memories, ceremonies of imposing grandeur and sadness, in short > a funeral oration for a hero. I know few examples in music of a style where sorrow has been so unfailingly conveyed in forms of such purity and such nobility of expression.

          The MEMORY of a great man? That suggests that the subject has already died, doesn't it? Napoleon was still alive when this was written.

          Yes,
          but the napoleon Beethoven admired and whom he had great respect for died the day he crowned himself emperor and betrayed his own "beliefs" in the eyes of Beethoven...or so it could be interpreted

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by ruudp:
            Yes,
            but the napoleon Beethoven admired and whom he had great respect for died the day he crowned himself emperor and betrayed his own "beliefs" in the eyes of Beethoven...or so it could be interpreted
            Yes, that's true, but Beethoven might have found himself in a corner. Promoting a revolutionary with the biggest symphony written to date just might get him in hot water with all sorts of people. So he hedges his bets. He draws up an ornate title page, calls in Ries (who he already knows to be a blabber-mouth) & in mock rage ceremoniously tears it up. Was he really surprised at Napoleon's coronation? (Was he not paying attention when N stranded an entire army in Egypt?)

            Sometime in the next decade he expressed his continuing admiration of Bonaparte, or so someone said on this board a month or so ago.

            My thanks to Robert Newman for this train of thought.

            Comment


              #7
              I know little about Beethoven's life and have not studied it in detail as have many on this forum. I cannot even say if Beethoven really intended to credit Napoleon in the 3rd Symphony or if he had a completely different reason for naming the piece as he did.

              I am aware that many questions have been raised over the reliability of many things written about Beethoven in Vienna by Ferdinand Ries and there are several journal articles available on subjects such as 'Ferdinand Ries - A Political Beethoven Forgery' and so on.

              Is there real evidence that Beethoven had republican views ? If so, of what does this evidence consist ? Letters ? By whom ?

              Speaking of things being falsely attributed I read today of just how clever art forgers can be. In 1945 an artist named Han van Meegaren confessed he had faked and sold no less than 8 paintings, six of these accepted as being genuine works by the great Vermeer and 2 others sold as genuine paintings by De Hooghs. Not bad for an unknown artist !

              Beethoven may have despised the regime of the time when he went to Vienna under the patronage of the 'establishment'. But it does seem strange he would ever have intended the 'Eroica' to a celebration of Napoleon. If that was his true motive why is there a funeral march at all ? If it is written to reject Napoleon why is he (Napoleon) the 'great man' in question. Such a piece is a strange thing for Beethoven to write if he had Napoleon in mind. And how did his patrons react to such a dedication if it really was for Napoleon ? It doesn't make much sense to me, I admit.

              Here is Beethoven being funded and supported by a regime under huge threat from the revolutionary armies of Napoleon. At a time of great censorship and uncertainty in Vienna. With the composer being sponsored by men who rubbed shoulders with the Emperor.
              I find this all very curious.

              No doubt I am missing some important facts.

              Robert




              [This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 02-19-2006).]

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by robert newman:

                Is there real evidence that Beethoven had republican views ? If so, of what does this evidence consist ? Letters ? By whom ?


                There certainly is a question over Ries's account of the tearing up of the title page of the Eroica - that he greatly admired Napoleon cannot he denied, but his views of Napoleon were ambivalent both before and after 1804. In 1803 he was seriously considering either moving to Paris or a lenghty stay there. The treaty of Luneville had secured a peace with Austria, but by 1804 it was unravelling and war was imminent so it would have been most unwise to have the name Bonaparte associated with him.

                Initially Beethoven wanted to dedicate the work to Napoleon, but Lobkowitz wanted to pay 400 ducats for the rights to the Eroica so Beethoven changed his mind and considered entitling it Bonaparte. After Ries had brought Beethoven the news in May 1804, Beethoven wrote to the publishers in August that the work was really titled Bonaparte. In his own copy of the work the words "Geschrieben auf Bonaparte" were added later in pencil and were never erased. So Combined with the political situation, this seems to offer a more likely explanation. That Beethoven may have flown into a rage and torn up the title page would of course have been entirely characteristic!

                In terms of the French Revolution Cooper states Beethoven could be said "to have supported Liberty wholeheartedly, Equality not at all, and fraternity only in a limited way." It is however known that he had a great admiration for the British system of parliamentary democracy (shows you how bad things were in Vienna!!).

                For further evidence of his republican sentiments it really is to be found primarily in the music - particularly Fidelio which is after all a French play and a typical post revolutionary French rescue opera.

                ------------------
                'Man know thyself'



                [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-20-2006).]
                'Man know thyself'

                Comment


                  #9
                  I think that Beethoven was truly republican.

                  Comment


                    #10

                    Yes, I hope he was a republican too. But notice how he actually seems to be both things at the same time during this early years in Vienna.

                    I was reading the other day the following interesting passage from a book on theatre and art just before the French Revolution. Here is an excerpt dealing with playwrights in Paris -

                    'In late October 1772, Edme Billard-Dumonceau wrote to the troupe of the Comédie Française, in Paris asking it to consider his comedy "Le Suborneur" for performance. Vainly comparing himself to Plautus and Juvenal, he nevertheless assured the actors that he would gladly modify his play to their specifications. In his letter, he reminded the company that his protector, "M. de St. Andelin," had several times asked them to hear his play.

                    The troupe, however, refused to consider it, responding that one of the actors had already determined it did not merit being read to the assembled troupe. In response, Billard decided to seek another opinion of the merits of his play (and himself). On October 30, just before the curtain was to rise, he climbed on the Comédie’s stage and declared, "Silence! Messieurs, I am Billard, author of ‘Suborneur,’ a play ... worthy of Momus, and Heraclitus has barred me from the stage!" Once the resulting ruckus had settled, he continued, "I am Billard, son of a secretary of the King. I was not made to be judged by stage clowns." Highlighting both his classical knowledge and his social standing, he argued that the actors were unqualified to judge a writer of his stature. For vindication, he appealed directly to the "noble and judicious" audience, which he challenged to show its "courage. Now is the moment to grant me justice." But no clamor of support arose, and soldiers quickly hustled him off the stage to Fort l’Evêque prison and then the asylum of Charenton.

                    (Although Billard would not be heard from again, his claim to merit the status of a man of letters based on the judgment of the public would become an important component of how playwrights represented themselves in the later decades of the Old Regime. Claiming an audience of "the public," as distinct from the court or urban elites, offered a tantalizing paradox).

                    (From Chapter 3 'A Field of Honour - Writers, Court Culture and Public Theatre in French Literary Life from Racine to the Revolution' - Gregory S. Brown).

                    If Beethoven really wrote the 'Eroica' with the idea that it was first to honour Napoleon why is the Funeral March such a major part of this symphony ? Doesn't the anecdote say that he changed the dedication AFTER it was written ? But if he changed the dedication after it was written why would it have any Funeral March ?

                    What great man had died that Beethoven knew which might have justified him writing this symphony when he did ? Is that unidentifed man not the real reason he wrote it, only later to be attributed by the same Beethoven to Napoleon ?

                    Again, why does this symphony end so triumphantly if, in fact, it was finally portrayed as being a 'Napoleonic' symphony ?

                    There are real contradictions here. While I agree that Beethoven finally wanted this work to be associated with Napoleon I am not sure that this was his original inspiration for the piece.

                    No - I am not saying that the death in 1801 had anything to do with the death of his great music Kapellmeister at Bonn but something like that seems more logical than the story we currently have about it having been Napoleonic from the outset. Work on it was certainly made before 1802 though most (I understand) was written in 1803.

                    RN

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Everything is possible.Maybe he was republican,had sympaties for the ideals of Frencs revolution,but realized that in practise it was all about teror and repression.Many great people had same problem.For example Schopenhauer was a fan of French revolution,and in 1848 he called German authorities to smash the revolution with all means.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by robert newman:


                        Again, why does this symphony end so triumphantly if, in fact, it was finally portrayed as being a 'Napoleonic' symphony ?

                        RN
                        The fourth movement is a metaphorical look at the Life of the Hero in general. It starts, as all good stories start, not with the man himself, but with his ancestors. In musical expression, with the bass line alone, without melody. (Ie, that which supports the matter at hand.) It then goes on in logical variation style, to highlight the heroic events of his life, and his growing stature.

                        Finally the hero says his farewell, but as he starts to fade away, he starts to pass away as well, and finally dies. But the Hero does not die. Heros never really die. They are merely in hiding, and when the trumpet sounds, they return in a blaze of glory.

                        The very end of the symphony is a small masterpiece in itself. The hero bursts forth, strides about and is swept into the crowd, but before he is completely lost to view, Beethoven makes a point to work in a clarinet arpeggio, as if to indicate that everyone will be included in this new world.

                        The second movement is a puzzle. It is full of detail, it is describing something. There is flight in it & I sometimes wonder if Louis XVI is not in there somewhere.

                        If we reframe the symphony as 1st movement the Revolution up to the fall of the Bastille, the second movement the Terror, represented by the funeral of the monarch, the third movement introducing Napoleon, and the fourth describing the great work still ahead of him, we may be getting somewhere.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by robert newman:

                          There are real contradictions here. While I agree that Beethoven finally wanted this work to be associated with Napoleon I am not sure that this was his original inspiration for the piece.

                          No - I am not saying that the death in 1801 had anything to do with the death of his great music Kapellmeister at Bonn but something like that seems more logical than the story we currently have about it having been Napoleonic from the outset. Work on it was certainly made before 1802 though most (I understand) was written in 1803.

                          RN
                          Yes there are real contradictions. As early as 1802 Beethoven expressed his disillusion with Napoleon over the 1801 concordat with the Vatican to his publisher's request for a 'revolutionary sonata' "but now that everything has slipped back to the old rut, now that Bonaparte has concluded his concordat with the pope .... there you must leave me out, you won't get anything from me". Yet shortly after this he began the Eroica!

                          As to the funeral march - could that not more likely represent the death of the Austrians who suffered more than any other country? I suspect when he began this symphony he wasn't necessaril thinking of Bonaparte, that the real motive was his projected move to Paris and his equal disillusion with the Hapsburg political system.

                          As for Luchesi would Beethoven really have wanted to honour a man who had supposedly taken part in a massive deceit, thereby betraying all his artistic principles? Let me quote from Klaus Eidam's Bach biography "In all my years of working with composers, I have never encountered one whose ambition was to write like someone else - Thomas Mann wrote 'It's about me when I write, always about me' - the same goes for every true artist"

                          ------------------
                          'Man know thyself'

                          [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-21-2006).]
                          'Man know thyself'

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Droell:
                            The fourth movement is a metaphorical look at the Life of the Hero in general. It starts, as all good stories start, not with the man himself, but with his ancestors. In musical expression, with the bass line alone, without melody. (Ie, that which supports the matter at hand.) It then goes on in logical variation style, to highlight the heroic events of his life, and his growing stature.

                            Finally the hero says his farewell, but as he starts to fade away, he starts to pass away as well, and finally dies. But the Hero does not die. Heros never really die. They are merely in hiding, and when the trumpet sounds, they return in a blaze of glory.

                            The very end of the symphony is a small masterpiece in itself. The hero bursts forth, strides about and is swept into the crowd, but before he is completely lost to view, Beethoven makes a point to work in a clarinet arpeggio, as if to indicate that everyone will be included in this new world.

                            The second movement is a puzzle. It is full of detail, it is describing something. There is flight in it & I sometimes wonder if Louis XVI is not in there somewhere.

                            If we reframe the symphony as 1st movement the Revolution up to the fall of the Bastille, the second movement the Terror, represented by the funeral of the monarch, the third movement introducing Napoleon, and the fourth describing the great work still ahead of him, we may be getting somewhere.

                            There is a quote by Bernstein "Music is about music - nothing else". It is not necessary to have read Nietzsche to appreciate Strauss's Also Sprach Zarathrusta!

                            ------------------
                            'Man know thyself'

                            [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-22-2006).]
                            'Man know thyself'

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