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[Droell]

Originally posted by robert newman:


I like Droell's posts. They are things from which I can learn. So posting is a two way process and I for one do not forget it.

Regards

Robert Newman

Dear Robert,

I will succumb to temptation.

The one serious criticism I have heard of my fanciful idea that Mozart fled Vienna, was that Constanza did not subsequently pack up the kids & join him.

And it might have been that a life in exile was not for her, marriage be damned.

But it might be that Mozart went only a short distance away & then tried by more discreet means to solve his various legal problems. If he could have gotten himself posthumously absolved, would he have "returned from the dead"? If so, it would have been a huge scandal & certainly many would never have spoken to him again. But, on the other hand, what you posted recently about having been "dead" in Paris is suggestive.

This led me to wonder who, exactly, was Georg Nikolaus Nissen, Constanza's second husband. He "rescues" Constanza & makes her work - the preservation of Mozart's legacy - his work. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Men have careers, they have professions, they have history. By the age of 40, only failures & dandies are available for this kind of project. So I put his name into Google, I went to images. They were rather striking, I think.

I don't normally refer people to my own website, but have a look:

http://www.astroamerica.com/mozart.htmlMozart & Nissen</a>



[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 02-16-2006).]

[robert newman]

Hi Droell,

You again raise some very interesting points.

I entirely agree that we have a bizzare situation in many respects with Constanze's second husband, Nissen. I could list quite a few of them.

1. Widow marries man. Fine. But the man spends years with his new wife (when they eventually marry) jointly writing (when he returns to his native Denmark) a biography on his new wife's first husband. Is that bizzare, or what ? I mean, is this not very strange ? Not exactly a routine sort of thing for a new husband to agree to, or even to co-operate with over years - especially if by his own admission he is unmusical. Decidedly strange, in fact.

2. Nissen (in his letters) admits that he is almost completely unmusical. Yet we see a great deal of evidence that he works with Mozart's music manuscripts and gets involved too in editing/censorsing much of the Mozart correspondence.

3. Nissen (during his stay in Austria) is employed as a Danish diplomat. He has ties to the great Thurn and Taxis dynasty at Regensburg (the same city that had connection to Leopold Mozart).

4. Nissen continues to be employed by the Danish government. He is appointed as a state censor of newspapers and other publications.

5. Constanze rarely uses his surname, Nissen.

6. In the period immediately after Mozart's death the other early biographer of Mozart, F.Nimetscheck of Prague begins a long correspondence with Constanze Mozart (all letters of which have vanished). But, even more surprising, it is Niemetschek who somehow agrees to adopt one of Mozart's children.

7. Niemetscheck is himself employed as a censor in Prague

8. Niemetscheck is fired from his post at the University of Prague for 'undermining the scholastic standards of the University'. He and the head of his department. (In Czechoslovakia this same Niemetscheck has the reputation of being a fierce censor against early nationalism in that country).

Your point about the welfare of Constanze and the children is valid enough. But in this case (contrary to many books and articles) she, Constanze, was soon very wealthy. She continued to live in the large apartment in Vienna, for example. Within a month of Mozart's death she earned a great deal and was given much more by donations, benefit concerts etc. - this despite her pleading poverty to the Emperor (within weeks of Mozart's death) for a pension she was not really entitled to.

The debts over which Mozart was sued by Prince Karl Lichnowsky (some details of which were discovered only in recent years) seem to have never featured again after Mozart's lifetime. (It is believed that these were paid off by the state).

There is too the strange relationship with Abbe Maximilian Stadler (a musicologist) who was formerly abbot of the great musical centre at Kremsmunster (where he was for years in charge). Stadler was in charge when his music pupil Sussmayer was there. And Sussmayer and Stadler were extremely close to the Mozarts in his last year, 1791. In fact, there is evidence that both Sussmayer and Stadler were involved in making 'Mozart's Requiem' - their involvement largely suppressed by Constanze's ever changing story on the genesis of that piece. But Stadler (in the very year of Mozart's death) was appointed to the consistorial court of the Bishop of Linz as an 'advisor' on prosecutions of an artistic/musical sort. He must therefore have known of Mozart's prosecution - though that case never features in any of the biographies.

The circumstances surrounding Mozart's untimely death in December 1791 are far from resolved and I have no doubt that Stadler played a very important role in Mozart's last days in ways that have never yet been properly explained. (Stadler continued this secret court employment at Linz until 1795). And Mozart's prosecution itself had been secret (as was the practice in courts of the nobility at that time).

I am sure there was no funeral procession to the Cathedral in Vienna, this despite common assumption to the contrary. The sole church ceremony was the memorial attended by a handful of friends at St Michaels Vienna on 10th December - 5 days later - which not one member of the Mozart family or their immediate circle are known to have attended.

You've raised some intriguing questions though they are beyond my own remit to answer. I say only that the Mozart legacy was watched over by those who had cultivated it from the beginning - up until the time when the Mozarteum was founded.

You know of course that the manuscript of the Requiem has on it the impossible date of '1792' and the 'signature' of Mozart - this not his ?

Robert

[Droell]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Hi Droell,

You again raise some very interesting points.

I entirely agree that we have a bizzare situation in many respects with Constanze's second husband, Nissen. I could list quite a few of them. ...

Robert

I was hinting they were the same man. They sure look similar.

What better way of concocting phony death stories - 20 years later - than to simply concoct them?

[Droell]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Hi Droell,

You again raise some very interesting points...


6. In the period immediately after Mozart's death the other early biographer of Mozart, F.Nimetscheck of Prague begins a long correspondence with Constanze Mozart (all letters of which have vanished). But, even more surprising, it is Niemetschek who somehow agrees to adopt one of Mozart's children. ....

Robert

I had to run an errand & while I was away, it hit me. Gleefully & with anticipation I went to the web looking for a portrait of Franz Xaver Niemetscheck. There are none.

I fear that Niemetscheck will turn out to be a fat, old, balding man. I am hopeful of something else altogether.

[robert newman]

There certainly IS a striking likeness between Mozart in 1782 and that of Nissen, Constanze's second husband, painted decades later. Thanks for showing this. How remarkable that you should discover this as the result of our good natured exchanges. (I've seen both these images many times but have never had reason to compare them). Congratulations ! You now have a theory. On the seismic 'Richter Scale' of Mozart studies this one rates very highly.

But you know of course you will have a formidable task to take this further.

1. How does an Austrian composer become a Danish diplomat ?

2. Does he learn Danish ?

3. What do his colleagues and friends think about it ? And what happens to the 'real' Nissen ?

4. Is there any similarity between the handwriting of Mozart and that of Nissen ?
(Mozart's handwriting is now the subject of detailed study by Plath and others, so you might be aware of there being several distinct styles of 'Mozart's' handwriting).

But above all, Nissen (i.e. the man Constanze married as her second husband) dies before the Nissen/Constanze biography of Mozart has been finally completed. He dies very suddenly, of a heart attack.

That Denmark has a place in the Mozart story is already clear. A symphony wrongly attributed to him (K16a) has recently been refered to. It turned up there in 1943. And it appears to have been received there 2 years after Mozart's death.

I suggest you get samples of Nissen's handwriting around the time of his marriage and for the years that followed. This should not be too difficult. And try to fill in the years between Mozart's death and Constanze's second marriage. Only then can you really move forward on this. But as far as extraordinary ideas goes, yours is worthy of at least a close examination. Nissen (I understand) is buried in Salzburg next to Constanze.

Do I think it is right ? Honestly, I do not know. It's such a remarkable idea, since the motive is certainly there and it would definitely resolve all sorts of difficulties. But let it be something one can laugh about too, since others may well accuse you of ignoring this fact or that. It has merits. But my area of study does not extend to such questions. I simply wish you well.

Robert

[robert newman]

Dear Rutradelusasa,

(In the words of a great Beethoven admirer) -

'Die Couchpotato ist er, der, alle verbrauchend, Null beiträgt, und wer sich über seiner eigenen Taille nicht erheben kann. Er spricht davon kidnappen aber kann nicht seinen Kugelschreiber erheben, um andere der Dinge zu illuminieren, die er liebt und weiß'.

Wilhelm von Spokeshave (2006)

[Droell]

Originally posted by robert newman:


There certainly IS a striking likeness between Mozart in 1782 and that of Nissen, Constanze's second husband, painted decades later. ...

1. How does an Austrian composer become a Danish diplomat ?


Easy easy easy. Mozart's a traveller. He already knows how to get along with people from other cultures.

The best ambassador you can get is a native of the country he is assigned to. Better still, one who already knows the ins & outs of the court itself.

The drawback is that you don't know who he will be loyal to: Employer or native country. Solution: Get someone with a damaged past, someone you can blackmail.

Mozart fits both requirements.


2. Does he learn Danish ?


If he wants. There are translators for that. Better from the Danish point of view that he doesn't know Danish. Easier to manipulate, if needed.



3. What do his colleagues and friends think about it ? And what happens to the 'real' Nissen ?


Was there ever a "real" Nissen?


But above all, Nissen (i.e. the man Constanze married as her second husband) dies before the Nissen/Constanze biography of Mozart has been finally completed. He dies very suddenly, of a heart attack.

Robert

I am speculating that Mozart first goes to Prague & turns up as Franz Xaver Niemetscheck. Prague's a friendly town & he solves a good part of the family problem by "adopting" one of his own children! He is forced out of this disguise & then adopts another, that of Nissen.

Curious note: One of Mozart's children was christened Franz Xaver.

Problem: "Niemetscheck" dies around 1849. I don't know how to square this. Did Mozart "borrow" the identity from a living man?

You know of the recent biography of Constanza. I am curious if there is a portrait of Niemetscheck in it, and if so, its date.


[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 02-16-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 02-16-2006).]

[Droell]

Originally posted by robert newman:



1. How does an Austrian composer become a Danish diplomat ?

Robert

An equally important question is could Mozart have given up music so completely? Suppose he was sick to death of it? Child prodigy & all that?

Here are the graves of http://www.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/St.%20Sebastien.htm
Leopold, Constanza & Georg</a>

Gee, gang. We have ruined another Beethoven thread!



[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 02-16-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:

Gee, gang. We have ruined another Beethoven thread!

yes and we the moderators have been more than tolerant in indulging this debate, but surely you could both have shown a little more respect to J A Gardiner by at least sticking to Beethoven in this thread? As it is I have asked Robert on numerous occasions to stick to the same thread without opening up the same topic in a different guise, thus swamping the board with his ideas.

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'Man know thyself'

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
yes and we the moderators have been more than tolerant in indulging this debate, but surely you could both have shown a little more respect to J A Gardiner by at least sticking to Beethoven in this thread? As it is I have asked Robert on numerous occasions to stick to the same thread without opening up the same topic in a different guise, thus swamping the board with his ideas.

Yes, Peter, but since then, the board has kicked back to life in various other threads. We are now all hopping madly back & forth. Another fine evening's entertainment, all thanks to your fine hosting.

In my case, another wasted workday. Gotta sign off & go make something of it.

[BeethovenLyn]

Just found out about the latest movie about Beethoven - "Copying Beethoven" - and can't wait to see it! Hope it's completely factual, this time!
.
Beethoven is my main passion in life - and has been since I was a young kid. My collection of Beethoven books and other items is quite extensive! Would love to hear from anyone that is as obsessed by him as I am!!!
.
Anyone know anything about this latest movie?
.
write any time - cg9sy@Allstate.com - would love to hear from you ...

[BeethovenLyn]

Just found out about the latest movie about Beethoven - "Copying Beethoven" - and can't wait to see it! Hope it's completely factual, this time!
.
Beethoven is my main passion in life - and has been since I was a young kid. My collection of Beethoven books and other items is quite extensive! Would love to hear from anyone that is as obsessed by him as I am!!!
.
Anyone know anything about this latest movie?
.
write any time - cg9sy@Allstate.com - would love to hear from you ...

[JA Gardiner]

Originally posted by Peter:
yes and we the moderators have been more than tolerant in indulging this debate, but surely you could both have shown a little more respect to J A Gardiner by at least sticking to Beethoven in this thread? As it is I have asked Robert on numerous occasions to stick to the same thread without opening up the same topic in a different guise, thus swamping the board with his ideas.

Thank you Peter, I appreciate your courtesy and acknowledgement of my feelings. For our new contributor I would say we have indeed heard of " Copying Beethoven" and have been privileged to have its writer - Srivele by penname - corresponding with us over the months of development and filming, and discussing his ideas with us. We are anxiously awaiting its release with the anticipation of a proud parent awaiting their precious child's first concert! Do look through the thread entitled Copying Beethoven on this site which will give you lots of information and insight.

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Beethoven the Man!

[This message has been edited by JA Gardiner (edited 02-17-2006).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by BeethovenLyn:
Just found out about the latest movie about Beethoven - "Copying Beethoven" - and can't wait to see it! Hope it's completely factual, this time!
.
Beethoven is my main passion in life - and has been since I was a young kid. My collection of Beethoven books and other items is quite extensive! Would love to hear from anyone that is as obsessed by him as I am!!!
.
Anyone know anything about this latest movie?
.
write any time - cg9sy@Allstate.com - would love to hear from you ...

Welcome! Just keep tuned into this forum and you will learn more and more about your passion. We are all great Beethoven lovers!

As for 'Copying Beethoven' the film is completed and is going to start distribution next, will keep you posted.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Droell]

Originally posted by Joy:
Welcome! Just keep tuned into this forum and you will learn more and more about your passion. We are all great Beethoven lovers!

As for 'Copying Beethoven' the film is completed and is going to start distribution next, will keep you posted.

The actor was on John Stewart's Daily Show on Wednesday. He said release would be in September.