Berlioz on Beethoven

[robert newman]

1. ‘A work greater than his greatest symphonies, greater than anything he wrote, and consequently greater than anything ever produced by the art of music’
(Berlioz on a performance by Mme Massart late in 1860 of Beethoven’s 'Appassionata'(Op. 57, in F Minor)

2. 'In the life of an artist thunderclaps sometimes follow each other in quick succession as in great storms, when the clouds, charged with electricity, seem to bounce lightning around and blow up a hurricane. I had just had a double vision of Shakespeare and Weber, when immediately on another point of the horizon I saw the immense figure of Beethoven arise. The shock I received was almost comparable to that from Shakespeare. He opened up a new world in music, just as the poet had unveiled to me a new universe in poetry'. (1837)

3. 'As far as symphonies are concerned, Mozart wrote 17 of which 3 are beautiful and even then the good Haydn produced a quantity of pretty things of that kind. Beethoven wrote 7 masterpieces but Beethoven is not human. And when you are only a human being you should not pass judgement on the god'.
(1862)

4. 'My young and sublime orchestra, we will meet again!… We have great things to do together. There is a musical America, Beethoven was its Colombus, I shall be its Pizarro or Cortez'. (1831)

[Peter]

Amazing how you can hear Berlioz's music even in his words - eccentric, flamboyant, theatrical!

Seriously though as I've mentioned before Berlioz did a lot for Beethoven appreciation in France.

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'Man know thyself'

[Frank H]

Originally posted by robert newman:

3. 'As far as symphonies are concerned, Mozart wrote 17 of which 3 are beautiful and even then the good Haydn produced a quantity of pretty things of that kind. Beethoven wrote 7 masterpieces but Beethoven is not human. And when you are only a human being you should not pass judgement on the god'.
(1862)

Dear Robert and All,

I'm afraid Droell isn't going to like that last quote from Berlioz! In a post in the thread "Rough Notes on the Life and Career of Mozart", he writes "I, for one, want Mozart as a man, not as a god. Just as I want Beethoven as a man, not a god." As a Christian, I must agree with Droell on this.

As for Berlioz himself, I have a bit of a problem.

I had a friend at school, who was pretty keen on Berlioz, especially the “Symphonie fantastique”. I quite liked it, but have always thought Berlioz overrated as a composer.

Many years later, I read a review of a new translation of his memoirs. It was highly praised by the reviewer, who was a person who from various statements in some of his writings I strongly suspected of being a racist. Sure enough, he quoted with some glee (it was clearly a part of the memoirs which especially appealed to him) one of the passages from Berlioz’s memoirs, in which he expressed his strong disdain of Chinese people and their habits (“eating woodlouse jam” was one such supposed habit). As I am of Chinese “ethnicity” myself (although fully British in other ways), this didn’t particularly further endear Monsieur Hector to myself.

Then, in an essay “Observation, Elucidation, Utilization: Western Attitudes to Eastern Musics, ca. 1600-ca. 1830” included in the book “Slavonic and Western Music” edited by M.H. Brown and R.J. Wiley (Oxford University Press, 1985), the author, Frank Ll. Harrison, writes: “Berlioz, open-minded and progressive in his views on musical practices in Europe, descended to cultural xenophobia in reacting to his experience at the World Exhibition of 1851 in London". He then gives a sample of what he means – and indeed, Berlioz is again very rude about Chinese, and this time also about Indians.

Wagner was of course even more of a virulent racist than Berlioz. However as I don’t let the character of a composer affect how I view their music – indeed I personally think that Wagner was one of the greatest composers ever – I have to admit that I like very much the music of a person, many of whose beliefs I find extremely repugnant.

It is actually no surprise to find racism among some composers of the Romantic school. Romanticism was, and is (for it is still very influential today) largely about the individual rebelling against the constraints of society and the social order, and asserting the value of such as artists - composers, painters, poets etc. This process, started by such as Mozart and Beethoven, among others, of course led to much that is good in succeeding ages.

But it also had its dark sides. One of these is what might be termed “romantic racism”. It is clear that some of these romantic artists thought of themselves as superior to the common herd. It is only a short step to thinking that their “race” or nation was similarly superior to other lesser breeds.

So, in our reverence for the achievements of the romantic revolution, in which Mozart and Beethoven played their part, let us not be blind to this other aspect. Nazism and, in a different way, Stalinist and Maoist communism (with their “personality cults”) – not to mention the present-day obsession with “celebrity” – are also sadly part of the same process.

By the way, Chinese don’t eat woodlouse jam.

Regards to all,

Frank

[robert newman]

I entirely agree Frank. Nothing debases us more than jingoism or nationalism for its own sake. The cult of personalities is specially evident in this 'Mozart' year in which we have 'wall to wall Mozart' but little recognition of, say, the remarkable music of Joseph Martin Kraus (born the very same year) or others for whom this same year is also significant (e.g. Shostakovitch).

I am a Christian myself but am not insulted that Berlioz refers to Beethoven as a 'god'. The word 'god' is of course a title (not a name) of a creative being worthy of adoration and reverence and it's definitely in this sense that Berlioz and others spoke.

As to foolish remarks made by Berlioz on the Chinese or the Indians one can only note in reply that France as a whole was as open to China, India (even ancient Egypt) for their cultures as any country in the entire western world at that time - a fact often reflected in art and musical developments in France throughout the 19th century.

I again agree with what you say on Wagner - a composer whose orchestral music is overwhelmingly lovely but whom I personally have avoided by choice when it comes to the operas. One must always bear in mind that gifted men are not necessarily wise. We must keep our liberty of thought and expression despite the huge magnetism of truly formidable talents such as Wagner.

Who is more truly revered and honoured in music than Johann Sebastian Bach - a towering genius whom the entire musical world knows is truly superior in almost every way. And yet, in Bach (even amongst those who adore him and his music) I note there is no cult of celebrity, no excess, and only a healthy balance between the man, his astounding work, and God who gave him such talent.

If I am grounded, musically, in Bach, and work only to reflect the day in which I live (but not Bach) I have no time for racism and none for the foolish cult of celebrity either. You're again completely right that idolatry is such a feature of our time.

(By 'being grounded, musically, in Bach' I mean my principal aim is to unfold that which is natural and to extend it as naturally and as reverently as I can, having been convinced since I was first made aware of music that the creation of music must be based on and seen to completion by the order that is my own Christian conscience). Is not great music only one wonderful part of the Christian legacy to this world ? Yes, even in Beethoven and in Berlioz. The place these great composers have within the works of of modern musicians is rarely discussed. Frankly, they do not concern me much. One knows what is true. That is enough.

Robert

[Droell]

Originally posted by Frank H:


I'm afraid Droell isn't going to like that last quote from Berlioz!

Frank

I quite like Berlioz, myself. I think he means "god" as someone who is impossibly great, but who is still a peer, an equal, someone whose work can be a goal for one's own efforts. In this I agree. Given talent, work & the proper circumstances, I think Beethoven, Mozart, et al, can & eventually will be equalled.

Interestingly enough, in the Missa Beethoven scores some passages where they sing of Christ, in parallel thirds. It has been suggested the upper notes of the thirds represent Christ, the lower notes represent Beethoven himself. Beethoven is suggesting a brother-brother relationship between Christ & himself.

It is an interesting mental exercise to think of Christ as your very own "older brother", with all that implies, such as setting yourself a goal of "godliness" that can actually be attained, albeit with great effort. When I do this, I get the impression of Christ, on one level at least, as a really fun, happy guy. Very approachable, in fact.

On the other hand, all of these are real men. They have fought their way to strong insights, they are (were) driven into powerful paths. Of course they are going to have powerful, often upsetting opinions. They will have equally powerful reasons for having them. This is not to forgive them, but to caution ourselves, that when or if we eventually find ourselves in their position, that we realize some of the pitfalls of it.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Droell:
I quite like Berlioz, myself. I think he means "god" as someone who is impossibly great, but who is still a peer, an equal, someone whose work can be a goal for one's own efforts. In this I agree. Given talent, work & the proper circumstances, I think Beethoven, Mozart, et al, can & eventually will be equalled.

Interestingly enough, in the Missa Beethoven scores some passages where they sing of Christ, in parallel thirds. It has been suggested the upper notes of the thirds represent Christ, the lower notes represent Beethoven himself. Beethoven is suggesting a brother-brother relationship between Christ & himself.

Just a thought in respect to the parallel thirds, and that is ought we not to try and emulate the being we worship? These are not octaves or fifths--perfect intervals, but rather the "imperfect" intervals, the only way that a person, being Christian could emulate Christ. Just a thought, of course.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Just a thought in respect to the parallel thirds, and that is ought we not to try and emulate the being we worship? These are not octaves or fifths--perfect intervals, but rather the "imperfect" intervals, the only way that a person, being Christian could emulate Christ. Just a thought, of course.

Yes interestingly to the medieval ear, 3rds (so harmonious to us) were discordant!

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'Man know thyself'