Beethoven - And Then ?

[robert newman]

The 19th century has so many great composers. But if asked which of them I rate most highly after the great Beethoven for originality, power, tenderness and sheer artistic genius (Schubert being a virtual contemporary) I would vote for the one and only Hector Berlioz (1803-1869). Setting aside the fact that his career seems to have been one long struggle for recognition (often in the face of prejudice) and the fact that he was a huge admirer and promoter of Beethoven long before Beethoven became fashionable, it is Berlioz who in my view is the natural successor to Beethoven and was forerunner of so much that one can hear in Wagner, Tchaikowsky and many other composers - often decades ahead of his time.

I would recommend anyone that has not done so to hear his 'Romeo and Juliet', his 'Trojans' his'Damnation of Faust', his 'Beatrice and Benedict', even his overture 'Les Francs Judges', his Hungarian March, his 'Symphonie Fantastique' or even his songs - all of these of wonderful feeling and the most powerful emotion. What a genius and what personal/artistic courage ! This man's music is new and old at the same time. It is truly phenomenal. And yet, even today, his name is associated with only a very few works. I do hope that he (perhaps the single most neglected great composer of the 19th century) will finally be as popular as his music deserves.

Robert

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

...it is Berlioz who in my view is the natural successor to Beethoven and was forerunner of so much that one can hear in Wagner, Tchaikowsky and many other composers - often decades ahead of his time.

You may not be surprised but Berlioz sounds so vulgar to me Robert, in comparison with Beethoven (though no doubt I assume such a word has been said of Beethoven by others!). Nevertheless time and time again this word comes into my head listening to his (Berlioz) music. But perhaps this explains your connection with Wagner et al. Beethoven and then? you say .. it all ends!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

The 19th century has so many great composers. But if asked which of them I rate most highly after the great Beethoven for originality, power, tenderness and sheer artistic genius (Schubert being a virtual contemporary) I would vote for the one and only Hector Berlioz (1803-1869). Setting aside the fact that his career seems to have been one long struggle for recognition (often in the face of prejudice) and the fact that he was a huge admirer and promoter of Beethoven long before Beethoven became fashionable, it is Berlioz who in my view is the natural successor to Beethoven and was forerunner of so much that one can hear in Wagner, Tchaikowsky and many other composers - often decades ahead of his time.

I would recommend anyone that has not done so to hear his 'Romeo and Juliet', his 'Trojans' his'Damnation of Faust', his 'Beatrice and Benedict', even his overture 'Les Francs Judges', his Hungarian March, his 'Symphonie Fantastique' or even his songs - all of these of wonderful feeling and the most powerful emotion. What a genius and what personal/artistic courage ! This man's music is new and old at the same time. It is truly phenomenal. And yet, even today, his name is associated with only a very few works. I do hope that he (perhaps the single most neglected great composer of the 19th century) will finally be as popular as his music deserves.

Robert

Berlioz was certainly a blazingly original genius - remarkable when you consider the early date of the Symphonie Fantastique (1831) making it surely the first truly 'Romantic' symphony? Parts of it such as the March to the Scaffold are even earlier, 1826. He was also one of the first in Paris to recognise the greatness of Beethoven - quite something considering the general hostility towards Beethoven at the conservatory stemming from Cherubini and even Reicha (Beethoven's friend from his Bonn days).

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 01-29-2006).]

[Joy]

He was a late bloomer when it came to music. His father was a doctor and wanted nothing more than for his son to follow in his footsteps. Hector tried and hated it! He fled after his first dissection. I don't think he got any support on his love of music at an early age. His love life was rather bizarre too. He fell in love with an actress, Miss Smithson who did not reciprocate his love but they did eventually marry. I think they had a son but she became an alcoholic and the marriage ended terribly.
He then married his mistress, after Harriet' death, a singer Marie Recio.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[robert newman]

I agree with Rod that the first impression one can get of music by Hector Berlioz is that it's vulgar, clumsy and not attractive. I used similar words when I first started listening to his music in detail. But Berlioz is tremendously original and must be listened to. Originality is rare that one cannot always and immediately be attracted to it at the first hearing. He's so original that it can take several hearings to be aware of his enormous talent. But not all his music is such a challenge. Some beautiful and immediately enjoyable things include -

1. Hungarian March
2. Love Scene from 'Romeo and Juliet'
3. Duet from the opera 'Beatrice and Benedict'
4. Chorus from 'L'Enfance du Christ'
5. Le Spectre de la Rose (from Nuits d'Ete)
6. Overture to Le Corsaire
7. Overture to Les Francs Judges

(His 'Nuits d'Ete' is one of the first song cycles with full orchestra and is itself a great masterpiece).

Speaking of him reminds me that I must print out a full list of his works. (There is a website online for him that's in both English and French - even some photographs of him).

His 'Damnation of Faust' and his 'Trojans' are huge and spectacularly great works. Some of his arias are simply incredible. His works definitely had huge impact on many, many composers. It's also easy to hear the great influence of Beethoven (whom he loved with such passion) in his dramatic use of the orchestra.

I'm love his music so very much but have hardly heard more than a small part of what he wrote. (It wouldn't surprise me if most of his music is still unrecorded).

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I agree with Rod that the first impression one can get of music by Hector Berlioz is that it's vulgar, clumsy and not attractive. I used similar words when I first started listening to his music in detail. But Berlioz is tremendously original and must be listened to. Originality is rare that one cannot always and immediately be attracted to it at the first hearing. He's so original that it can take several hearings to be aware of his enormous talent. But not all his music is such a challenge. Some beautiful and immediately enjoyable things include -

1. Hungarian March
2. Love Scene from 'Romeo and Juliet'
3. Duet from the opera 'Beatrice and Benedict'
4. Chorus from 'L'Enfance du Christ'
5. Le Spectre de la Rose (from Nuits d'Ete)
6. Overture to Le Corsaire
7. Overture to Les Francs Judges

(His 'Nuits d'Ete' is one of the first song cycles with full orchestra and is itself a great masterpiece).

Speaking of him reminds me that I must print out a full list of his works. (There is a website online for him that's in both English and French - even some photographs of him).

His 'Damnation of Faust' and his 'Trojans' are huge and spectacularly great works. Some of his arias are simply incredible. His works definitely had huge impact on many, many composers. It's also easy to hear the great influence of Beethoven (whom he loved with such passion) in his dramatic use of the orchestra.

I'm love his music so very much but have hardly heard more than a small part of what he wrote. (It wouldn't surprise me if most of his music is still unrecorded).

Good heavens, man! Don't forget the tremendous Requiem and Te Deum!!! The Requiem boasts of some of the most bombastic and some of the most tender music of the post Beethoven 19th Century.

[robert newman]

Very true. Making a short list of easily accessible and beautiful works is not easy. The Te Deum and the Requiem really are great works as you say. If this link between Beethoven and Berlioz was not so strong I would not have posted on Berlioz here. His versions of the French National Anthem are superb also. And there are at least 30 wonderful arias in his operas which I know for sure are still virtually unknown to most music listeners.

There is a photograph of him in his last years conducting in Russia (where he was popular. He's such a fascinating and utterly unique person in the history of music.

Sorry for the omission of those two great works. (I personally found them to be less immediately accessible but yes, wonderful, tremendous works).

Robert

[Peter]

This topic of course is linked to Beethoven's place in romanticism, but if we look at Berlioz he sprang apparently out of nowhere, there simply wasn't music like it before. Berlioz also had great influence on Liszt and Wagner. His memoirs make for fascinating reading!

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

I remember reading somewhere that Berlioz was somewhat musically uneducated (relatively speaking) and that a lot of his originality came from his breaking of rules that he didn't know existed. This might be complete rubbish, of course.

Michael

[robert newman]

'Berlioz', by David Cairns
Volume 1, 'The Making of an Artist' - 648pp ISBN: 0140287264
Volume 2, 'Servitude and Greatness' - 896pp ISBN: 0520222008
The first volume was published originally in 1989, when it won a number of awards, including that of the Royal Philharmonic Society, it has now been published in a second edition which has been revised and extended. It describes the early years of Berlioz, his years as a student and concludes after his return to France after two years away from Paris, having at last won the Prix de Rome.

The concluding volume has been widely acclaimed and has already won the prestigious Samuel Johnson award. It describes his life in maturity, the composition of his works, culminating in 'The Trojans', which the author regards as his crowning masterpiece (which still has not been performed in full in France!). Not only was Berlioz probably the finest conductor of his age, but also a very accomplished author - his music criticism and newspaper articles helped to subsidise his music. His memoirs (which have also been translated by David Cairns) must surely be the best autobiography written by a composer.

"What an improbable novel my life is!", Berlioz wrote in 1832. And certainly much of the romantic fervour of his music is a reflection of his life - but just as much of his music is in fact very classical in style, his personal life is based upon a foundation of quiet study and support from his family and friends. Throughout his life he sought endlessly an ideal love which in the end was never within reach and even his marriage to Harriet Smithson, whom he had idealised from afar did not bring long term happiness. The relationship between the composer and his father, who so wanted him to follow in his footsteps and become a doctor, is described over many chapters. It is a classical story of dispute between generations where the protagonists are still deeply bound by love and respect.

David Cairns has spent about 20 years immersed in Berlioz and one cannot imagine a better biography. This is no academic treatise lurching from footnote to bibliography, but on the contrary can be read almost like a novel as the facts are presented calmly and often in the words of contemporary letters and writings which are incorporated naturally into the narrative.

The author had access to the papers of the Berlioz family and has been able to draw a much fuller picture than was previously available. One ends up by feeling as if you almost knew Berlioz.

Life in France in the beginning of the nineteenth century was enormously different from the contemporary scene, but the author describes the background conditions and political and musical events which would have influenced the composer in a most natural and unobtrusive way.

The biography is also to be praised in not attempting to psychoanalyse the composer. The attempt by certain musical biographers to draw conclusions about the sexual nature etc of composers based upon psychobabble with only the scantiest of evidence is to be deplored.

Although clearly based upon very thorough scholarship, this biography is designed to be read by the general reader, not just by musicologists. There is a fascinating story to be told and David Cairns tells it very well.

There are no musical examples but the author knows the music inside out. If there is any criticism which could be made it is that there is an absence of detailed analysis of the music - but that would have resulted in a very different kind of work.

'I am very enthusiastic about this biography, which has given me more personal pleasure than any comparable work I have read for years. Fully recommended'.

(Arthur Baker)


RN

[gprengel]

I musst admit that most works by Berlioz do not really speak to me, but there are some great exceptions:

1. of course, symphony fantastic, just wonderful

2. Requiem

3. overture 'Les Franc-Juges' the only of his overtures which I find truly great with it's lovely and so melodious second theme and it's fascinating orchestration. I can't understand why this overture is hardly known.

4. Duett from Beatrice and Benedict

Recently I saw his opera Condemnation of Faust which just so bored me ...

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My favourite Composer after Beethoven is Mendelssohn, whose stringquartetts in a- and f-minor for example just make me speechless. I don't know no chamber music which have so much passion, so much of Beethoven like these two!! (well, and Tschaikowsky's Piano Trio in a-minor)


Gerd

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Michael:
I remember reading somewhere that Berlioz was somewhat musically uneducated (relatively speaking) and that a lot of his originality came from his breaking of rules that he didn't know existed. This might be complete rubbish, of course.

Michael

I think that his exposure to the French Grand Opera had a lot to do with the excessive orchestration he employed as well as the dramatic quality of his works. He was, of course, one of the most brilliant orchestrators of the 19th Century and to this date is much respected in this respect.

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by robert newman:

The 19th century has so many great composers. But if asked which of them I rate most highly after the great Beethoven for originality, power, tenderness and sheer artistic genius (Schubert being a virtual contemporary)

If we are not counting Schubert, then I think the greatest of the 19th Century was either Wagner or Schumann.

[robert newman]

Yes, grpengel is right that Mendelssohn was a hugely talented composer and a real child prodigy of the Mozart kind. This is not disputed. But what I find difficult about him is that he tends to regard music as polite entertainment - a sort of bourgeoise way to pass the time. Now of course there are elements of this in virtually all composers, but I mean that in him (a man who, after all, was 'born with a silver spoon in his mouth' so to speak, there is no great sense of him plumbing the depths of emotion or of him stirring our soul in the sense that a Beethoven or Bach could and so often did. Did he ever experience social isolation or material hardship ? I very much doubt it and it seems to show. A 'safer' composer to be lionised in England at tea parties of Queen Victoria would be hard to imagine. But this is not intended to be too critical. The man was of huge importance in many ways. Not least in persevering with revival of Bach's St Matthew Passion and in his helping hand to various other composers. (He rather looked down his nose at Berlioz by all accounts).

Sorrano may be right that Berlioz probably broke rules he never knew existed. But once he got hold of an idea he had the natural talent to use it to wonderful effect. His strange forms are (in my view) an attempt to break up the classical landscape without dismantling the entire diatonic system. But to be bored by a hearing of any of his works is now impossible for me - they are wine that I now love.

Just how many works he actually wrote I still do not know. But I'm told by several friends that he wrote ecstatically about Beethoven in prose and I will try to find some examples of this for future posts.

Schumann (as HaydnFan) says must surely be one of the greatest composers of the century as must also Wagner - though with Wagner I must say that his orchestral interludes and overtures convinced me of that years ago. Wagner had adulation that Berlioz never dreamed of. But Berlioz will have his day and I think I would be first in the queue if there was any performance near me of any of his wonderful operas.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by robert newman:

...Berlioz will have his day and I think I would be first in the queue if there was any performance near me of any of his wonderful operas.

The Met recently revived his monumental "The Trojans" so I would say that to some extent he IS having his day.