Synesthesia!

[robert newman]

This is interesting. I was reading a book today on my travel in to London on the tube train 'Debussy - His Life and Mind' (E Lockspeiser - Volume 1) - He is recorded as having had the following conversation with Ernest Guiraud about the question of key signatures and art -

GUIRAUD - You have said Monsieur Debussy that the cor anglais solo in the 3rd act of Wagner's 'Tristan' is a classical aria, an academic 'exercise'. But it doesn't in any way suggest Beethoven.

DEBUSSY - That's because you do not hear the harmony beneath it. But look further. A COMPOSER LIKE BERLIOZ IS MUCH FURTHER REMOVED FROM BACH AND MOZART THAN WAGNER. HE IS LESS TONAL THAN WAGNER THOUGH WAGNER IS MORE ACCOMPLISHED IN TRANSITION FROM MAJOR TO MINOR

GUIRAUD - That seems harsh - it's constantly chromatic. How can you call that classical ?

DEBUSSY - But 'classical' signifies major and minor. In the classical style chords are resolved. The classical style implies near modulations (a closed circle). The term 'romantic' is a label that to my mind has no real significance. The language of Schumann, Berlioz and men like Liszt is the classical language, I hear in them the same sort of music.

GUIRAUD - But this insipid, continuous music. No scenes, no cuts. You can't say it is anything like Mozart.

DEBUSSY - I shouldn't say it is the opposite of Mozart. It's a later development - Wagner develops in the classical manner. Wagner merely abandoned the perpetual perfect cadences and the hateful six-four chord. Supposing Mozart had the idea of writing a whole operatic act in one continuous movement - do you think he would have been able to achieve it ? For his was the convention of separate arias and four bar phrases. Again, Wagner develops in the classical style. In the place of the architectural themes of a symphony occurring at specified points he has themes instead that represent things and people, but he develops these themes in a symphonic manner. He derives from Bach and Beethoven (as we see in Tristan and Meistersinger)- not to speak of his orchestra which is really a development and enlargement of the classicla orchestra.

I am not misled by equal temperament. To follow rythms is stifling. Rythms cannot be constructed within bars.... Relative keys are to me sheer nonsense. Music is neither major NOR minor. Minor thirds and major thirds should be combined and modulation thus becomes much more flexible. The mode is that which one chooses at the moment. Themes suggest their own orchestral colouring. I tell you that Music cannot be learned.

GUIRAUD - Oh, come now ! You are forgetting that you yourself were 10 years at the Conservatoire.

DEBUSSY - That is true enough. I feel free because I have been through the mill of the academic side. I don't write in the fugal style (precisely) because I know it so well.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 02-03-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Peter;

Beethoven's bagatella opus 126/4 is in B-minor and it is far from being a "dark" or "gloomy" piece. As a matter of fact, I had the opportunity to hear Glenn Gould perform this bagatella as an encore two nights in succession. The first night he played it with "sturm and drang." The second night he played it "soft and sensuous." Both nights he brought down the house!! Perhaps "dark" and "gloomy" is not a function of the key; rather, it is a function of the rendition.

Beethoven wrote a very "dark" and "gloomy" largo assai in his "Ghost Trio." That was written in D-minor. The beginning of the dungeon scene in Fidelio is also "dark" and "gloomy." That was written in F-minor. Nowhere are D-minor or F-minor described as "black keys."


Hofrat

B minor is a key rarely used as the main tonality by the classical composers - you will search in vain for a symphony or sonata by Mozart or Beethoven in that key (the Agnus Dei from the Missa Solemnis is in B minor). I think it was on a sketch that Beethoven wrote the words B minor - black key.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-03-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
B minor is a key rarely used as the main tonality by the classical composers - you will search in vain for a symphony or sonata by Mozart or Beethoven in that key (the Agnus Dei from the Missa Solemnis is in B minor). I think it was on a sketch that Beethoven wrote the words B minor - black key.

Dear Peter;

It is only natural for Beethoven to use B-minor in the Agnus dei of his Missa Solemnis. Missa Solemnis is in D-major, and as I stated before, D-major and B-minor are relative keys. It was a common practice in classical composing to use relative keys in a composition and has nothing to do with B-minor being a "black key."

You will also find that C#-minor was a key rarely used by classical composers as a main tonality. Only 2 symphonies composed in the 18th century were written in this key. The C#-minor symphony by Joseph Martin Kraus had to be rewritten in C-minor in order to be managible by the orchestra. Yet, no one called C# a "black key."


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Peter;

It is only natural for Beethoven to use B-minor in the Agnus dei of his Missa Solemnis. Missa Solemnis is in D-major, and as I stated before, D-major and B-minor are relative keys. It was a common practice in classical composing to use relative keys in a composition and has nothing to do with B-minor being a "black key."

You will also find that C#-minor was a key rarely used by classical composers as a main tonality. Only 2 symphonies composed in the 18th century were written in this key. The C#-minor symphony by Joseph Martin Kraus had to be rewritten in C-minor in order to be managible by the orchestra. Yet, no one called C# a "black key."


Hofrat

Dear Hofrat - I teach music and am fully aware that B minor is related to D major. Beethoven referred to B minor as a black key not ME! As to the source I believe it was written on a sketch, but as I do not have the time at the moment to read through my many Beethoven biographies I suggest you take the time to do it and you will find my comments confirmed.

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'Man know thyself'

[Bobbie]

Wasn't 'pedalling' also used as a special colouristic effect by Beethoven & Mozart ?


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