cadenzas

[sjwenger]

I believe that over time, there's been a change in the way cadenzas are created. For the past few decades, pianists and other musicians have created cadenzas to showcase their talents and abilities. I suspect that in Beethoven's time, they designed cadenzas because Beethoven himself was such a brilliant pianist that they weren't able to play his music as he himself did. They simplified, rather than embellished, the originals. I have no basis for this supposition other than my own ears. Opinions, anyone?



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[HaydnFan]

I agree with you. I also remember reading that most composers after Beethoven actually wrote down their cadenzas (ie. the composer wants something specific to be played at the cadenza) which with Beethoven and earlier composers, we often have none actually written by the composer, himself. So in this way, yes, sort of the purpose of a cadenza has changed over time.

[Droell]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I believe that over time, there's been a change in the way cadenzas are created. For the past few decades, pianists and other musicians have created cadenzas to showcase their talents and abilities. I suspect that in Beethoven's time, they designed cadenzas because Beethoven himself was such a brilliant pianist that they weren't able to play his music as he himself did. They simplified, rather than embellished, the originals. I have no basis for this supposition other than my own ears. Opinions, anyone?

An accomplished virtuoso will always prefer his own cadenzas, which, let's be fair, are not something thought up on the spur of the moment. Ries's first public appearance was as soloist for the public premiere of Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto. Beethoven himself prepared Ries (in fact, wrote out the piano part expressly for him). Ries wrote his own 1st movement cadenza, playing it against the advice of Beethoven, who thought it beyond Ferdinand's abilities. Beethoven conducted the performace. When Ries played his cadenza perfectly, the surprised Beethoven murmured his approval, thereby cementing Ries's reputation. Such was Ries's own account. Standards were high, competition was cut-throat.

Elsewhere, I remember early recordings by Daniel Barenboim of Beethoven's concerti with Barenboim's own cadenzas. We would hear original cadenzas more often, but everyone wants to hear the usual ones, which, as it happens, are by Beethoven himself. The customary Mozart cadenzas are also by Beethoven.

Concerti were typically written for the composer-as-soloist as a means of making money. As such, the solo parts were closely guarded, oftentimes not written down until well after the first performance. Mozart never intended for anyone else to play his concerti. So it never occurred to him, in his short life, to write down any of his cadenzas.

The first cadenza for Beethoven's violin concerto was invented by the soloist, who is said to have played it on one string, instrument held upside-down. Far from shrinking in front of Beethoven's genius, the soloist's intention was to one-up Beethoven at his own game.

In later decades of the 19th century, the music industry grew & there got to be more demand for concerti at concerts than there were composers to play their own. Not wanting their work to be ruined by show-offs, composers wrote out cadenza passages. This, more than anything else, put an end to the age of creative cadenzas. If, as Sjwenger suggests, performers are once again creating their own cadenzas (I rarely get out anymore), this would be a welcome development.

[Peter]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I believe that over time, there's been a change in the way cadenzas are created. For the past few decades, pianists and other musicians have created cadenzas to showcase their talents and abilities. I suspect that in Beethoven's time, they designed cadenzas because Beethoven himself was such a brilliant pianist that they weren't able to play his music as he himself did. They simplified, rather than embellished, the originals. I have no basis for this supposition other than my own ears. Opinions, anyone?

There were pianists of Beethoven's day such as Hummel, Wolffl, Dussek, quite capable of playing the notes. You have to realise that a composer primarily wrote a concerto for himself or pupils to play - this was the case with Beethoven until the Emperor concerto and it is interesting that for this work Beethoven actually wrote the cadenza into the score making it for the first time (to my knowledge) an integral part of the concerto.

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'Man know thyself'

[MontrealPianist]

Cadenzas we're improvized before the classical period, we're just seeing a rehash of what used to be done.

[Droell]

As I think of it, there is a modern fad of re-writing Liszt's famous Hungarian Rhapsody. Jorge Cziffra seems to have started it half a century ago & he was rather good, for the one or two recordings I once heard. But I am hearing stuff now that simply trashes the piece. This is why composers are so detailed in their scores, to prevent this sort of thing.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I believe that over time, there's been a change in the way cadenzas are created. For the past few decades, pianists and other musicians have created cadenzas to showcase their talents and abilities. I suspect that in Beethoven's time, they designed cadenzas because Beethoven himself was such a brilliant pianist that they weren't able to play his music as he himself did. They simplified, rather than embellished, the originals. I have no basis for this supposition other than my own ears. Opinions, anyone?

May I suggest a recording by Naxos (8.553426) featuring cadenzas that Brahms wrote for various piano concerti by Mozart and Beethoven that Brahms used early in his career when he was compelled to go on concert tour. I do not think that these cadenzas are simplified.

Hofrat

[robert newman]

Dear Droell,

I read your article and enjoyed it. But I can't understand why you wrote -

'Mozart never intended for anyone else to play his concerti. So it never occurred to him, in his short life, to write down any of his cadenzas'.

What is KV624 ? I have always understood this to be a collection of cadenzas that Mozart himself made for piano concertos that are today attributed to him. We have in KV624 cadenzas for the following piano concertos KV 40i, 107/1, 175, 238, 246, 271, 365, 413, 414, 415, 449, 450, 451, 453, 456, 459, 466, 488 and 595.

In the case of KV246 we have no less than 3 versions of the 1st movement cadenza all in Mozart's own hand. These are of varying degrees of difficulty and I think perhaps these were written with different performers in mind.

It's true that Leopold and others wrote parts of some of these concerto manuscripts in their own hand (as did Nannerl) as did Mozart himself. It would be interesting to know how many of these concertos exist in Mozart's own hand. But I don't think you can say that Mozart wrote no cadenzas for them.

Regards

Robert

[Droell]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Droell,

I read your article and enjoyed it. But I can't understand why you wrote -

'Mozart never intended for anyone else to play his concerti. So it never occurred to him, in his short life, to write down any of his cadenzas'.

What is KV624 ? I have always understood this to be a collection of cadenzas that Mozart himself made for piano concertos that are today attributed to him. We have in KV624 cadenzas for the following piano concertos KV 40i, 107/1, 175, 238, 246, 271, 365, 413, 414, 415, 449, 450, 451, 453, 456, 459, 466, 488 and 595.

In the case of KV246 we have no less than 3 versions of the 1st movement cadenza all in Mozart's own hand. These are of varying degrees of difficulty and I think perhaps these were written with different performers in mind.

It's true that Leopold and others wrote parts of some of these concerto manuscripts in their own hand (as did Nannerl) as did Mozart himself. It would be interesting to know how many of these concertos exist in Mozart's own hand. But I don't think you can say that Mozart wrote no cadenzas for them.

Regards

Robert

Dear Robert,

I confess I did not know. My thanks for the information. I note the KV number is the second to last of all in the series.

Dave

[robert newman]

Yes, although I have not seen this document myself.

Best wishes

Robert

[Roehre]

May I suggest a recording by Naxos (8.553426) featuring cadenzas that Brahms wrote for various piano concerti by Mozart and Beethoven that Brahms used early in his career when he was compelled to go on concert tour. I do not think that these cadenzas are simplified.
Hofrat

An interesting CD it definitely is.

Until now the cadenzas for the piano concertos were the object in this thread, but I'd like to add the violin concerto as well.

As is well known Beethoven composed a cadenza for the piano version of the violin concerto where the piano is accomanied by the timpani.
At least one violinist (Wolfgang Schneiderhan) arranged this beethovenian cadenza "in reverse" for violin and timpani (and recorded it accordingly on DGG).

As far as I am aware there aren't recordings on CD of any of the piano concertos in existence where the listener can programme a specific cadenza from a choice offered at that CD
(Btw: Hess states, that at least in the "early concertos" (0,2,1) the cadenza could be as long as approximately a quarter of the total length of a movement ).

From the vioin concerto such a recording does exist:
Ruggiero Ricci plays the concerto with the Orchestra del Chianti conducted by Piero Bellugi on Biddulph Records LAW 017.

On this CD we find cadenzas by Beethoven(/Schneiderhan), David, Vieuxtemps, 2 by Jaochim, Laub, Wieniawski, Saint Saens, Auer, Ysaye, Busoni, Kreisler, Milstein and Schnittke. Using a CD-player's programme function one can choose which cadenza is put at the appropriate place at the end of the first movement.
(Of course I couldn't resist to listen to all the cadenzas in one go, which made the movement a quite long quasi-brucknerian but nevertheless exciting experience )

(Btw: Brahms' violin concerto underwent a similar treatment by the same performers on Biddulph LAW 002)

[djmomo17]

I'm working on a blog post about Opus 61 violin cadenzas for next week. Thought I'd share some "exclusive" materials I just prepared...

Classic cadenzas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zugjNK9DPpE

Cadenzas written by the performer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2NGw9WVfVU

New Approaches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wI3vWdLCIw

I'll be giving a run down I suppose when I eventually put it together...I know there are several missing, including the Schneiderhan.
Any favorites?

[djmomo17]

FYI - My blog post today is the one with he cadenzas above. My favorite is the Kopatchinskaja cadenza, probably because it is as faithful an adaptation of he LvB piano cadenza as possible....


http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/2010/09/91-cadre-of-cadenzas.html