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The Supposed Beethoven Sketch for WoO88

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    #31


    I am not a fluent German speaker or reader. I simply repeat from the texts provided by Zimmer which speak for themselves. The cantata shown to Haydn in December 1790 is described by Franz Wegeler as having -

    'SEVERAL SECTIONS SO DIFFICULT THAT SOME MUSICIANS DECLARED THEY COULD NOT POSSIBLY PLAY THEM. AS A RESULT, THE PERFORMANCE WAS CANCELLLED'

    If you believe this cantata (SINGULAR) is either WoO87 or WoO88 why can't you identify which is was ?

    Secondly, from Simrock -

    'A CANTATA WHICH WE DID REHEARSE SEVERAL TIMES.....WE HAD ALL MANNER OF PROTESTS OVER THE DIFFICULT PLACES BEFORE US AND HE ASSERTED THAT EACH PLAYER MUST BE ABLE TO PERFORM HIS PART CORRECTLY'

    This is indisputable evidence of virtuosity being asked of these musicians. It is evidence that this virtuosity is not confined to any one instrument but to each part.

    And Simrock continues -

    '(WE) PROVED WE COULDN'T, SIMPLY BECAUSE ALL THE FIGURES WERE COMPLETELY UNUSUAL, THEREIN LAY THE DIFFICULTY'.

    Again, I ask you Peter, which part of WoO87 or WoO88 matches this description. None whatsoever.

    But let me continue still more -

    'Father Reis, who was the Leader in Mergentheim, declared EARNESTLY, that THIS WAS ALSO HIS OPINION, and so it was not performed at court AND WE HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING MORE OF IT SINCE'.

    I again ask you to identify which of these two cantatas, WoO87 or WoO88 this can possibly be describing ? You refuse to give me a straight answer.

    Let me end by repeating this -

    'and so it was not peformed at court AND WE HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING MORE OF IT SINCE'.

    Now, you can convince yourself if you please. But the simple facts remain. Neither of these two cantatas WoO87 or WoO88 can have been the piece being described here. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.

    If these reports are believed by you it is important that you tell us plainly, which of the two cantatas these reports are speaking about - since you know, I know, and everybody else knows that no such technical demands are made of either musicians or singers in either of these two cantatas. But if you go round in circles on this issue you are left with admitting that neither cantata matches these two independent descriptions of the Beethoven cantata - the one showed to Haydn.

    Furthermore, if Beethoven had been commissioned to write either WoO87 or WoO88 (for which there is no evidence whatsoever) there would be in the possession of the Bonn Reading Society such a work. There is not. There never has been. And it is a blatant lie to insist that the facts say otherwise.

    By June of 1790 Beethoven had written a piece of music related to the death of Joseph. That is fact. By December of 1790 he had shown a cantata to Haydn. That is fact. The same cantata was declared unplayable at Mergentheim - a fact confirmed by several witnesses. You are now left with either WoO87 or WoO88. That is the choice you will not or cannot make since you know that whatever choice you make would be absurd.

    The 19 year old Beethoven wrote a cantata. It was neither of the above. And that is my final word on this subject. That work and the material in Beethoven's possession at the time of his death are either fragments of that cantata or are forms of it which will in time prove the existence of such a third work. The evidence is entirely pointing in this direction.

    Whether manuscripts were on sale in 1813 or not (which is 12 years after the death of Luchesi) begs the question of which manuscripts they were, to whom they were attributed, and where they now are. But they in no way free you from answering the question of the cantata Beethoven showed to Hadyn in December 1790.

    Robert Newman (de la Touche)


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      #32
      Robert,

      You've presented your case. The contentious issue is the origin and ownership of the cantatas we have. I will only be interested in this 'lost' cantata you mention if and when it is 'found'.

      As things stand I still agree with Brahms opinion of the Joseph!

      Here is another link but I haven't read any of it yet myself..
      http://www.raptusassociation.org/cantatas.html


      ------------------
      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


      [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-09-2006).]
      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by robert newman:


        Robert Newman (de la Touche)

        I have presented all the available documented evidence that supports Beethoven as the author, and I agree with Mark Zimmer that the case is not iron-clad. However you have produced not one shred of evidence to even hint that Luchesi wrote these works, only undocumented assumptions and theories you make up as we go along. You have consistently failed to answer my questions as any fair-minded person reading these posts can see.

        I have already identified one of your theories as definitely wrong, the assumption that the sonata was a different work to the cantata - funny you didn't comment on that one, I would have expected a slight ackowledgement of your error.
        Nor have you satisfactorily explained Beethoven's deficiency in basic contrapuntal studies on arrival in Vienna.

        For my part in all honesty I really couldn't care if you do eventually prove Luchesi wrote WoO87 and WoO88 or that Luchesi was Beethoven's main teacher - all I care about is the truth, until then I think we both agree that there really is no more to say.

        ------------------
        'Man know thyself'



        [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 01-09-2006).]
        'Man know thyself'

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Peter:

          For my part in all honesty I really couldn't care if you do eventually prove Luchesi wrote WoO87 and WoO88 or that Luchesi was Beethoven's main teacher - all I care about is the truth, until then I think we both agree that there really is no more to say.

          When in doubt listen to the music I say. Bearing this in mind I look forward to your assessment of the Arminio tracks I posted in your honour Peter.


          ------------------
          "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
          http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

          Comment


            #35
            Despite the rather heated debate at times Robert I would like to thank you for raising these issues, even though I don't agree with your conclusions. I have learnt a great deal particularly about Luchesi and if there is one thing I do agree with you on, it is that he and many other composers of the time have been neglected for far too long. Maybe further research in the future will provide more evidence to clarify matters.

            ------------------
            'Man know thyself'
            'Man know thyself'

            Comment


              #36


              Thank you Peter. You made a really good case and, frankly, there seem to be strong arguments on both sides. The jury is still out on the significance of material found in Beethoven's handwriting that most definitely relates to WoO88 and the existence within that material that there was a keyboard part (the full details of which I don't know but which seem to indicate that it and other solo instruments were in some way acting as more than an accompanist to the sopranoist). We are left with some intriguing possibilities and have surely left things at the right time for others to resolve.

              We covered most of the available evidence, such as it is. Thank you for your informative part in what has been a really good and sometimes intense debate.

              Robert Newman

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