BBC Bach Marathon

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
The thing is I get it all too readily Chaszz, and it's not enough for me. If it was I would be at the Bach Forum and not here.

No, you don't get it at all. It goes right by you. Beethoven could get it, but you can't.

And you needn't subtly imply that I should take myself off to another forum, which I frequent anyway, and which implication you often make after we have disagreed for awhile about Bach or Wagner or whomever. The masthead at the top of the page here says 'Classical music in general'.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
No, you don't get it at all. It goes right by you. Beethoven could get it, but you can't.

And you needn't subtly imply that I should take myself off to another forum, which I frequent anyway, and which implication you often make after we have disagreed for awhile about Bach or Wagner or whomever. The masthead at the top of the page here says 'Classical music in general'.

The 'subtlety' of the implication was such that I was unaware of it myself!

Thing is Beethoven never put himself in the same equation. I listen to Bach from the perspective of a Beethoven fan, something Beethoven couldn't do. I think Beethoven viewed other composers as fellow tradesmen.

I can see where Bach has his skills but in some ways he restricted himself in a manner that Beethoven, among others, did not. I feel an sence of 'enclosure' to Bach's music. They don't teach you this kind of thing at music school.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-04-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
The 'subtlety' of the implication was such that I was unaware of it myself!

Thing is Beethoven never put himself in the same equation. I listen to Bach from the perspective of a Beethoven fan, something Beethoven couldn't do. I think Beethoven viewed other composers as fellow tradesmen.

I can see where Bach has his skills but in some ways he restricted himself in a manner that Beethoven, among others, did not. I feel an sence of 'enclosure' to Bach's music. They don't teach you this kind of thing at music school.

I didn't go to music school either.

When I hear Bach's mighty choruses with high trumpets, I see beyond far horizons; do not at all feel enclosed.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I didn't go to music school either.

When I hear Bach's mighty choruses with high trumpets, I see beyond far horizons; do not at all feel enclosed.

I might agree If I hadn't heard Handel's.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by Rod:

Of course various comentators stated Bach was 'the greatest', just like on Classic FM they said Mozart was a few days later! Now in 2006 all we will hear is Mozart.

I say Beethoven is much better than either, (though the old-school Beethoven is best put in the trash-can).

I have to disagree with this statement. I know this is the Beethoven Forum but I must say that I think Mozart is better than Beethoven (in terms of consistency. Say what you will about individual pieces). Just my opinion.

[Rod]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
I have to disagree with this statement. I know this is the Beethoven Forum but I must say that I think Mozart is better than Beethoven (in terms of consistency. Say what you will about individual pieces). Just my opinion.

Fair enough, are you saying all the pieces presented here so far at the mp3 page show signs of inconsistancy!? Are you saying a similar exercise with Mozart's output would be more interesting than this?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-04-2006).]

[jdidlock]

I wonder if anyone else out there recorded the Bach Marathon. I did, all 214 hours of it, but through sheer carelessness managed to botch a few files and am wondering if anyone can assist me with fill-ins. Two-way street, of course.

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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell

[MontrealPianist]

Originally posted by Rod:
I listened to many hours of these countless chorales and fuges etc on the BBC over the holidays, and the whole of the Matthew Passion for the first time. The form is so strict throughout - this is corporate music really, the corporation being the church. It was commented that Bach got his knuckles slapped by his churchly bosses for even toying with the Chorale. That said it all to me - if this is the greatest music it makes a mockery of what the other composers have been doing - the church is the arbiter of artistic taste? I listened to Handel's Chandos Anthems directly after the Passion, it was like going from the darkness to the light, in all seriousness.

Of course various comentators stated Bach was 'the greatest', just like on Classic FM they said Mozart was a few days later! Now in 2006 all we will hear is Mozart.

I say Beethoven is much better than either, (though the old-school Beethoven is best put in the trash-can).

Bach got his fingers slapped but still went on ahead with his style, he was revolutionary for the time, the Church hated him because of his complex harmonics, and righfully so, they were the people paying him. So he had an employer, much like Haendel did and every composer before the 19th century, they had to make music for their employers, not themselves. So it says a lot about Bach, that he was willing to take lower paying jobs despite having a reputation that scared any opposing musicians.
Also, do not make assumptions on me, if I think Bach is the greatest musician of all time, it is not because a two bit commentator said so. You say we dont learn this in music school, but some of us do learn things that go unheard to the untrained ear. It takes many years of experience to truly enjoy Bach's genius. I also find it funny you add that "old school" Beethoven is best put on the trash can, Glenn Gould thought the contrary. He thought his best works we're when he was younger. I dont necessarily agree but there's a lot of charm in his early works. There seems to be a sort of internal struggle, between his teechings, his emotional desires and his incomparable musical intelligence.

[Michael]

Originally posted by MontrealPianist:
. I also find it funny you add that "old school" Beethoven is best put on the trash can, Glenn Gould thought the contrary. He thought his best works we're when he was younger. I dont necessarily agree but there's a lot of charm in his early works.

I think Rod was referring to "old school" performance styles and not Beethoven's early output?

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
I think Rod was referring to "old school" performance styles and not Beethoven's early output?

Michael

Why the question mark at the end Peter?!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by MontrealPianist:
Bach got his fingers slapped but still went on ahead with his style, he was revolutionary for the time, the Church hated him because of his complex harmonics, and righfully so, they were the people paying him. So he had an employer, much like Haendel did and every composer before the 19th century, they had to make music for their employers, not themselves. So it says a lot about Bach, that he was willing to take lower paying jobs despite having a reputation that scared any opposing musicians.
Also, do not make assumptions on me, if I think Bach is the greatest musician of all time, it is not because a two bit commentator said so. You say we dont learn this in music school, but some of us do learn things that go unheard to the untrained ear. It takes many years of experience to truly enjoy Bach's genius. I also find it funny you add that "old school" Beethoven is best put on the trash can, Glenn Gould thought the contrary. He thought his best works we're when he was younger. I dont necessarily agree but there's a lot of charm in his early works. There seems to be a sort of internal struggle, between his teechings, his emotional desires and his incomparable musical intelligence.

You can't compare Bach's conditions of employment with Handel's, handel was as cosmopolitan as you can get. If he wanted to try his harmonic tricks unhindered he could have tried his luck in the 'free' musical world like Handel. He could have come to London to take him on directly like so many others did. Now people believe (or rather fantasise) Handel did not wish to meet Bach because he secretly knew Bach was the better composer!

For all Bach's ability the music often sounds naiive to me compared to Handel who is musicall much more a man of the world. I can't seriouly accept the idea than Bach found the ultimate musical solution from an endless number of church cantatas.




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:
Why the question mark at the end Peter?!

That was me, Rod, not Peter?

[MontrealPianist]

Originally posted by Rod:
You can't compare Bach's conditions of employment with Handel's, handel was as cosmopolitan as you can get. If he wanted to try his harmonic tricks unhindered he could have tried his luck in the 'free' musical world like Handel. He could have come to London to take him on directly like so many others did. Now people believe (or rather fantasise) Handel did not wish to meet Bach because he secretly knew Bach was the better composer!

For all Bach's ability the music often sounds naiive to me compared to Handel who is musicall much more a man of the world. I can't seriouly accept the idea than Bach found the ultimate musical solution from an endless number of church cantatas.

He might not have found the ultimate musical solution but the structure of his pieces are so flawless, everything seems to be flawless when he writes. Wether when I sing Bach or I play Bach, I have to put my whole attention on every note, because every note is important, there are no banalities. How every note can be so perfect while the contrepoint is so complex is what makes me think he's the greatest. Although a mediocre example, it is much like the Amadeus movie when Salieri gets a hold of Mozart manuscipts, he states that everything is so perfect, this is Bach. Beethoven once said Bach(which means river I think?) should've been called Ocean because his work is as such.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
That was me, Rod, not Peter?

Most sorry, but the question still applies!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by MontrealPianist:
He might not have found the ultimate musical solution but the structure of his pieces are so flawless, everything seems to be flawless when he writes. Wether when I sing Bach or I play Bach, I have to put my whole attention on every note, because every note is important, there are no banalities. How every note can be so perfect while the contrepoint is so complex is what makes me think he's the greatest. Although a mediocre example, it is much like the Amadeus movie when Salieri gets a hold of Mozart manuscipts, he states that everything is so perfect, this is Bach. Beethoven once said Bach(which means river I think?) should've been called Ocean because his work is as such.

Now we are getting on more similar ground, but have different deductions from it - namely I agree Bach is always perfect, but he is too perfect, the wrong kind of perfect. Thus the output has a mathematical quality. The correct kind of perfection perversely has to have a little built-in imperfection, or conflict within the musical concept, lest the result sound too easy to the ear. Of course the alternative is not to present something totaly alien. In this respect Beethoven and Handel from what I have heard have the best sollutions - they have a bit of everything, grace, dynamism, beauty, gruffness, all in tastelfull structures and proportions.

I can't really add any more, apart from promoting the latest mp3s at my Handel site, from the opera 'Arminio'! All feel free to join up.
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin