BBC Bach Marathon

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
No doubt you'll select the best from that work, but I'm sure you'd agree it's far from being Handel's most successful opera? I don't say that to knock Handel (who I admire greatly) but to illustrate judging from a few works isn't sensible. To be frank I wouldn't think a great deal of Beethoven if I'd only heard Wellington's victory or the Rage over a lost penny!Obviously Bach is not to your taste, fair enough, but you'll have to admit that few if any great musicians past, or present (including Beethoven) shared your views. Not only musicians, but such great figures as Goethe and Einstein have seen something in Bach you evidently do not. Therefore it seems a little silly to continually knock a musician of Bach's stature, as though doing so somehow enhances the stature of Handel.

The Rage over the Lost Penny is quite excellent! I have heard quite a lot of Bach over the years Peter. At this place consider my 'knocking' of Bach from the perspective of a Beethoven fan. My grievance is not with Bach himself but the musical establishment.

But regarding Handel, some of his biggest failures were some of his very best works, like Theodora the biggest failure of all. Even Messiah was not accepted at first.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
The Rage over the Lost Penny is quite excellent! I have heard quite a lot of Bach over the years Peter. At this place consider my 'knocking' of Bach from the perspective of a Beethoven fan. My grievance is not with Bach himself but the musical establishment.

But regarding Handel, some of his biggest failures were some of his very best works, like Theodora the biggest failure of all. Even Messiah was not accepted at first.

From the perspective of a Beethoven fan I'd be intrigued to discover why Beethoven regarded Bach as the master of harmony and how his music was influenced by Bach! Bach achieves a meditative quality of deep spirituality and profundity that really is only matched by late Beethoven.

I understand your greivance with the musical establishment - quite shocking the 18th century's lack of recognition of one of the greatest masters ever!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-20-2005).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Calm down, calm down. Typically I get the impression Beethoven is pretty steady in terms of 'key wandering'. Regardless my point is the same, there's much more to music than this.

By Beethovenian perspective I did not mean Beethoven's own. I mean from the point of view of considering Beethoven's music, which I much prefer to Bach's. Beethoven was never in such a position to look at his own output in the scheme of things as we can do today.

Harmony is one of the tools of expression, like melody and rhythm, and if great effect is gotten from it, then it is legitimately referred to. Of course one would not rank a composer by his use of harmony technically, but by what it does for his music. In Bach it is the servant of great depth and feeling.

Beethoven's own perspective holds up well. He knew how great he was, and he knew who his great predecesors were. Since he is greater than any composer who came after him, his perspective remains accurate. And he loved Bach.

You resist understanding that your own judgment is not absolute or even close on some musical matters. Simply because you love Beethoven and Handel deeply does not mean you are qualified to pass judgment on other composers whom you simply cannot understand. I can't stand pomegranates. I don't therefore deny that they are delicious to those who like them. You set yourself up in the exalted position of telling Bach lovers they enjoy inferior music, and direct them to your latest Handel mp3. You don't realize this is demeaning to them, as well as poor judgment on Bach by yourself.

[Rutradelusasa]

Again this? How often do this Bach vs. Händel discussions appear?

There is nothing to gain from this, guys we all know Rod doesn't like Bach and must let it be. Rod, we all know you don't like Bach and you should let him be.

Just a thought .

------------------
"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
Again this? How often do this Bach vs. Händel discussions appear?

There is nothing to gain from this, guys we all know Rod doesn't like Bach and must let it be. Rod, we all know you don't like Bach and you should let him be.

Just a thought .

My comment regarding the Chistmas Oratorio was completely valid, but I know it is a crime to have doubts about Bach.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
You set yourself up in the exalted position of telling Bach lovers they enjoy inferior music, and direct them to your latest Handel mp3. You don't realize this is demeaning to them, as well as poor judgment on Bach by yourself.

If you were a more regular visitor chaszz you would be aware that if at all I usually promote my latest Handel offerings at the Beethoven mp3 page chains, which have nothing to do with Bach. Now we have got to op108 I only wish those pages would stir as much comment as this and some other chains here of much less importance.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-21-2005).]

[robert newman]

I've just torn myself away for a few hours from the ongoing BBC Radio 3 'Bach Christmas'. (In which every known work by the composer is being broadcast, one after the other, over 10 days continuously).

Well, having heard a whole series of the most extraordinary masterpieces from Johann Sebastian Bach over the past 12 hours and more I think it plain that he was the most sublimely gifted musician in musical history.

As someone commented earlier today on the BBC, if the works of Bach were somehow to be destroyed their loss would be more tragic for music than if all the musical works of all other composers were destroyed. THAT is how great, how sublime, Bach is - at least to me.

Bach (unlike, say, Beethoven) does not grab me by the lapels. He does not batter me in to submission or demand anything beyond himself. And yet he convicts me and his music must surely and forever be one of the great miracles of human existence.

Robert

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I've just torn myself away for a few hours from the ongoing BBC Radio 3 'Bach Christmas'. (In which every known work by the composer is being broadcast, one after the other, over 10 days continuously).

Well, having heard a whole series of the most extraordinary masterpieces from Johann Sebastian Bach over the past 12 hours and more I think it plain that he was the most sublimely gifted musician in musical history.

As someone commented earlier today on the BBC, if the works of Bach were somehow to be destroyed their loss would be more tragic for music than if all the musical works of all other composers were destroyed. THAT is how great, how sublime, Bach is - at least to me.

Bach (unlike, say, Beethoven) does not grab me by the lapels. He does not batter me in to submission or demand anything beyond himself. And yet he convicts me and his music must surely and forever be one of the great miracles of human existence.

Robert

A man of good judgment. A gentleman and a scholar. A worthy connoisseur. (Have you seen the Parthenon sculptures in the British Museum, Robert?)

I myself, after listening to the BBC broadcast for five or six hours today, say no more, no more, I can't take any more, I need a rest. After an hour I put it back on, I can't live without it.

[robert newman]

Dear Chaszz,

Thank you. Yes, and isn't it wonderful that a product of being convinced of Bach's greatness is that there is no need to ever labour the point of what really amounts to self-evident truth ? This love of Bach (whether we describe him as a musical angel or as 'a fifth evangelist)' also has the marvellous feature of never leading us to deify the man or of us ever slipping in to that idolatry so common in studies of other composers. I personally have never yet met a fan of him and his works who was not, himself/herself a true and reverent student of Music. The sheer fact of Bach's art obliges us to remove our shoes.

Yes, I've seen these sculptures at the British Museum. Exquisite. Are you a London person yourself ?

Regards

Robert Newman

[MontrealPianist]

Bach is, in my opinion, the greatest musical genius in history. He combines Mozart's talents with Beethoven's intelligence. For the winter session, I have decided to play an arragement by Busoni of Bach's Chaconne. It's a magnificient piece of art, I still cannot believe some of the passages in it. It also stays very true to the original composition for the Violin.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Chaszz,

Thank you. Yes, and isn't it wonderful that a product of being convinced of Bach's greatness is that there is no need to ever labour the point of what really amounts to self-evident truth ? This love of Bach (whether we describe him as a musical angel or as 'a fifth evangelist)' also has the marvellous feature of never leading us to deify the man or of us ever slipping in to that idolatry so common in studies of other composers. I personally have never yet met a fan of him and his works who was not, himself/herself a true and reverent student of Music. The sheer fact of Bach's art obliges us to remove our shoes.

Yes, I've seen these sculptures at the British Museum. Exquisite. Are you a London person yourself ?

Regards

Robert Newman

No, I'm an American and an artist. I was overwhelmed by the sculptures when I first saw them in 1993.

[jdidlock]

I dare not put this up on the Radio3 message boards, I'd be shot at dawn, but it is a shame that the Bach "Listen Again" files have been disappearing - seems daft that they should have started going BEFORE the main broadcast has finished. However, so far it is only the links on the Radio Player that have disappeared, the files are still there so goto
http://tinyurl.com/exzu5

Where a complete list of all URLs can be found. Available for a limited number of downloads but I can repeat if needed.

------------------
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell

[This message has been edited by jdidlock (edited 12-30-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by MontrealPianist:
Bach is, in my opinion, the greatest musical genius in history. He combines Mozart's talents with Beethoven's intelligence...

I listened to many hours of these countless chorales and fuges etc on the BBC over the holidays, and the whole of the Matthew Passion for the first time. The form is so strict throughout - this is corporate music really, the corporation being the church. It was commented that Bach got his knuckles slapped by his churchly bosses for even toying with the Chorale. That said it all to me - if this is the greatest music it makes a mockery of what the other composers have been doing - the church is the arbiter of artistic taste? I listened to Handel's Chandos Anthems directly after the Passion, it was like going from the darkness to the light, in all seriousness.

Of course various comentators stated Bach was 'the greatest', just like on Classic FM they said Mozart was a few days later! Now in 2006 all we will hear is Mozart.

I say Beethoven is much better than either, (though the old-school Beethoven is best put in the trash-can).

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Well, the chorales are the simplest and most similarly-structured parts of the cantatas except for the recitatives. The main creativity is largely in the other movements, though the chorales are often beautiful also. As far as his bosses are concerned, Bach was notoriously stubborn both in his art and his practical life, and listened only to his own genius when creating music

After a large hint, my wife was good enough to get me the complete Bach cantatas for Xmas, 60 CDs, by a Dutch aggregation led by Peter Leusink. They arrived late, so I listened to the first three only today. They were so great I listened to the CD four times through.

Face it, Rod, it's there, but you just don't get it. A pity, what you're missing out on. But not everything good is for everybody.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 01-04-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Face it, Rod, it's there, but you just don't get it. A pity, what you're missing out on. But not everything good is for everybody.

The thing is I get it all too readily Chaszz, and it's not enough for me. If it was I would be at the Bach Forum and not here.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin