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    Beethovenian art that isn't musical

    I have not found a composer with a sound comparable to Beethoven, except for a few preceding him, whom the master himself had assimilated into his works -- sections of Bach, Handel, Vivaldi (since Bach/Vivaldi were often confounded) strongly anticipated the German master; but no musical artist subsequent captured the exact aura of 'Beethoven' -- that peculiar combination of power, scope, impeccable technique, profound creativity, and that highly idiomatic brand of sardonic jest. However, in a weird, twisted way, the great whaling epic, "Moby-Dick" has struck me artistically the exact same way Beethoven does. Melville's prose comes across as the spirit of Beethoven in text. Melville, I consider, as the most vigorous, uncompromising, and intense of the English prose writers; but there is also, just like Beethoven, a general lacing of forceful jest. The biggest difference between the two, however, is that Melville was extremely cynical, whereas Beethoven, while brooding over the tormented aspects of existence, was in the end very idealistic. Here is a passage that reminds me of prose suffused with Beethoven:

    --
    Thus, then, the muffled rollings of a milky sea; the bleak rustlings of the festooned frosts of mountains; the desolate shiftings of the windrowed snows of prairies; all these, to Ishmael, are as the shaking of that buffalo robe to the frightened colt!

    Though neither knows where lie the nameless things of which the mystic sign gives forth such hints; yet with me, as with the colt, somewhere those things must exist. Though in many of its aspects this visible world seems formed in love, the invisible spheres were formed in fright.

    But not yet have we solved the incantation of this whiteness, and learned why it appeals with such power to the soul; and more strange and far more portentous - why, as we have seen, it is at once the most meaning symbol of spiritual things, nay, the very veil of the Christian's Deity; and yet should be as it is, the intensifying agent in things the most appalling to mankind.

    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way? Or is it, that as in essence whiteness is not so much a color as the visible absence of color, and at the same time the concrete of all colors; is it for these reasons that there is such a dumb blankness, full of meaning, in a wide landscape of snows - a colorless, all- color of atheism from which we shrink? And when we consider that other theory of the natural philosophers, that all other earthly hues - every stately or lovely emblazoning - the sweet tinges of sunset skies and woods; yea, and the gilded velvets of butterflies, and the butterfly cheeks of young girls; all these are but subtile deceits, not actually inherent in substances, but only laid on from without; so that all deified Nature absolutely paints like the harlot, whose allurements cover nothing but the charnel-house within; and when we proceed further, and consider that the mystical cosmetic which produces every one of her hues, the great principle of light, for ever remains white or colorless in itself, and if operating without medium upon matter, would touch all objects, even tulips and roses, with its own blank tinge - pondering all this, the palsied universe lies before us a leper; and like wilful travellers in Lapland, who refuse to wear colored and coloring glasses upon their eyes, so the wretched infidel gazes himself blind at the monumental white shroud that wraps all the prospect around him. And of all these things the Albino Whale was the symbol. Wonder ye then at the fiery hunt?
    --

    The hyperbolic rhetorical question at the end there perfectly demonstrates the seaman's brutal sense of humor.

    This was piqued by the 'Artists Beethoven liked' thread.

    But I am wondering -- have any of you experienced nonmusical works of art that strike you as mysteriously Beethovenian?

    [This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 12-04-2005).]
    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing. -- Act V, Scene V, Macbeth.

    #2
    Maybe Seurat - he's completely different from anything before or after, and he makes magic on canvas.

    ------------------
    To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
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    To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.
    To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
    susanwenger@yahoo.com

    To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.

    Comment


      #3
      I see Michelangelo as very much like Beethoven. The mighty emotions he expresses are similar. The weight, power and movement of the human bodies he depicts are similar to Beethoven's rolling and roiling rhythms. He stands in a very similar relationship to the art of his time. He came at the peak of the High Renaissance, when calm classical order and symmetry ruled, as in the painting of Raphael, and turned art in a more dynamic and overtly emotional direction. Although he was not yet a Baroque artist, he inspired the Baroque and foreshadowed its direction. He took the classical forms and enlarged them, straining them to gigantic proportions. In almost exactly parallel ways, Beethoven arrived at the peak of 18th C. classicism, when Mozart exemplified the perfection of classical style. Beethoven, though not a
      Romantic (as Peter has long since taught me) made music much more forceful and overtly emotional, and in this way heralded the Romantic music of the later 19th century. Like Michelangelo, he took the classical forms he inherited and greatly enlarged them, straining them nearly to their utmost to make them expresss his gigantic vision.



      [This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 12-04-2005).]
      See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

      Comment


        #4
        Excellent choice and description! I felt the same Beethovenian spirit when I saw Michaelangelo's monumental 'Pieta' sculpture piece, in which Mary laments over the body of Jesus and overwhelms the scene with beautiful folds of drapery.

        Another art work that reminds me of Beethoven: Thomas Cole's Course of Empire series -- I can easily imagine each stage set to a specific symphonic movement of Beethoven's. The "Destruction" stage vividly brings to mind the first movement of the 9th. -- And the "Pastoral" none other than the symphony by the same name! Thomas Cole definitely possessed a comparable grandeur to Beethoven.

        Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
        That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
        And then is heard no more. It is a tale
        Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
        Signifying nothing. -- Act V, Scene V, Macbeth.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Beyond Within:
          This was piqued by the 'Artists Beethoven liked' thread.
          Dear Beyond Within;

          I hope the participants of that thread were not claiming that Beethoven liked Melville. A quick peek in the encyclopedia shows that Melville was born in 1819.


          Hofrat
          "Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"

          Comment


            #6
            One of Leonard Bernstein's books contains an imaginary dialogue in which he rakes some poor slob over the coals for the temerity of calling a range of rugged mountains "pure Beethoven."

            This thread began by postulating that no other composer sounds like Beethoven. True enough that no two great composers sound alike, but I should like to offer the post-Beethoven work I've heard that sounds to me more like Beethoven than anything else since his time: "Ash" by Michael Torke. The heavy chords punctuated by timpani, the tiny woodwind interjections, they all sound to me like (shoot me now, Lenny) pure Beethoven.

            Comment


              #7
              Is there a link to where we can hear Torke's "Ash?"

              ------------------
              To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
              susanwenger@yahoo.com

              To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.
              To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
              susanwenger@yahoo.com

              To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Hofrat:
                Dear Beyond Within;

                I hope the participants of that thread were not claiming that Beethoven liked Melville. A quick peek in the encyclopedia shows that Melville was born in 1819.


                Hofrat
                This thread was inspired by that one because it mentioned nonmusical art in relation to Beethoven. Mody Dick was published in 1851, so it would be highly anachronistic to associate the living Beethoven with it! However, I wonder what Melville thought of Beethoven...

                Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
                That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
                And then is heard no more. It is a tale
                Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
                Signifying nothing. -- Act V, Scene V, Macbeth.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I find that Franz Liszt is Beethovens heir as much as Beethoven is Bachs heir. Both composers created their brightest masterpieces at the end of their lives. Liszt's 19th hungarian rhapsody surpasses anything that Beethoven had ever done for the instrument. They both brought an intelligence in their music that only a few bright figures in history have done for their respective functions.

                  If anyone is intersted, I highly suggest Vladimir Horowitz's interpretation of the 19th rhapsodie as well as Goulds interpretation of the 32nd Sonata. They are amongst the greatest performances I have ever heard. They left me in complete awe and with a small dose of depression as I could not imagine myself play like that.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by MontrealPianist:
                    Liszt's 19th hungarian rhapsody surpasses anything that Beethoven had ever done for the instrument.
                    Technically not musically - and that for two reasons - 1st Beethoven always despised virtuosity for mere effect and 2nd, Liszt had an instrument of far greater capacity. Beethoven's piano sonatas and variations surpass anything done before or since where it counts, in terms of musical value.



                    ------------------
                    'Man know thyself'
                    'Man know thyself'

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Peter:
                      Technically not musically - and that for two reasons - 1st Beethoven always despised virtuosity for mere effect and 2nd, Liszt had an instrument of far greater capacity. Beethoven's piano sonatas and variations surpass anything done before or since where it counts, in terms of musical value.


                      Liszts spanish rhapsodie is a piece with no substance and a lot of virtuosity. However, his 19th is impressing in every aspect. The virtuosity helps the melody, it doesnt create it. The harmony is advanced, easily 50 years before his time. Liszts works in his last five years are a thing to behold.

                      I also would like to note that I very much like your input!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I don't want to alter the direction and topic in this thread too much, but I just have to put my cents in on this Liszt discussion.

                        I agree with MontrealPianist about Liszt. I really do think Liszt deserves WAY more credit than he gets now and is indeed a successor to Beethoven in the ability to create profound music. I mean, Wagner is not a successor to Beethoven in my eyes, nor is Schubert or Brahms. Liszt takes the honor. He accomplishes this with his Dante sonata, his Annees de Pelerinage books, his Etudes, Rhapsodies, and especially his operatic fantasies which are some of the greatest epic works of music for piano I've ever heard. Liszt's ability to cover all emotions, to create original melodies and to capture the orchestral effects on his piano is what makes him rank above all others during his time. While Liszt's instrumental works are limited, that in no way makes him inferior to other composers like some elitists think. I've seen a pathetic mentality that "soandso has a Symphony No. 3 in F major and Liszt only has piano works so Liszt is not a good composer". What ignorant garbage.

                        Alot of people also place a label on Liszt that he's "bombastic" "flashy" or they like to put a negative spin on his virtuosity. But Liszt gives classical music a new direction that sadly was not continued, even though Busoni tried to. Liszt introduced a "heavy metal" kind of movement to classical music. The power, the dissonance, and the darkness of mood found in works like Totentanz, Sonata in B minor, Funerailles, and the Mozart transcriptions are what separates him from the dull Brahms and unimaginitive Mendelssohn.

                        Now, I do agree Liszt did some things for the sake of show and technical effect, and sometimes the pieces suffer because of it. However, most of his works are very good when they are flashy, heavy and passionate. I mean, people should find his music invigorating and exciting, not put off because it's too dazzling or dissonant.

                        And for his transcriptions alone, he deserves an eternal debt of gratitude. This was one of the greatest contributions to classical music and I actually want more. I wish Liszt would have continued, maybe transcribing Mozart's last two symphonies or the Missa Solemnis. Oh well =(

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by MontrealPianist:

                          Liszts spanish rhapsodie is a piece with no substance and a lot of virtuosity. However, his 19th is impressing in every aspect. The virtuosity helps the melody, it doesnt create it. The harmony is advanced, easily 50 years before his time. Liszts works in his last five years are a thing to behold.

                          I also would like to note that I very much like your input!
                          Thank you and i enjoy our discussions as well! I agree that Liszt was (particularly in his later works) harmonically way ahead of his time and I'm thinking of works such as the Bagatelle in no key. For me though, his two finest works with piano are the Totentanz and the B minor sonata and for these alone he deserves to be recognised as a great composer. However I cannot agree that he ever equals let alone surpasses the late Beethoven sonatas which are in a world of their own.

                          ------------------
                          'Man know thyself'
                          'Man know thyself'

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Peter:
                            However I cannot agree that he ever equals let alone surpasses the late Beethoven sonatas which are in a world of their own.
                            Even though this is not directed at me, I wholeheartedly agree. Beethoven's sonatas will never be matched, but regarding a composer who follows up in greatness after Beethoven, which is a point I want to make, I don't give the honor to Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, or anyone else, no matter what musicologists, historians or even composers have said. To me, they fall a little flat. Schubert is a great one and I have the utmost appreciation of his music, but Liszt takes the throne as the most able and actually prolific composer. (Liebestraume No. 3, Il Penseroso from Annees de Pelerinage, Mephisto Waltz No. 1, Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 -- what a plethora of multidimensional and contrasting works). In addition to that, his melodies are original, and it just disappoints me when people look at the surface of his works and scold it for being loud, dissonant, or bombastic. This is really a failing on the listener's part, in my opinion. Anyone recall Clara Schumann writing her disgust and revulsion at hearing the Sonata in B minor? I don't have the source to quote exactly what she said, but she pretty much hated it and thought of it as musical garbage. Some people follow the same pattern of bashing the piece because of the loud chords, dissonance and gusto that somehow affronts their senses.

                            Liszt deserves more enthusiasm and patience than that.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Nightklavier:

                              Liszt deserves more enthusiasm and patience than that.
                              He does and I don't think it is a view shared by many these days. At his best, Liszt was great indeed. Regarding Clara Schumann, she wasn't that impressed on hearing Brahms's 1st symphony either!

                              ------------------
                              'Man know thyself'
                              'Man know thyself'

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