Middle movements of the 9th

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Thank you. This response is enlightening.

Good! With the Hammerklavier, Charles Rosen says that the scherzo's main theme is like a humorous form of the main theme of the first movement with its falling thirds and insistent B natural. 'The elaborate structure of the first movement is missing here, but reflections of its dramatic shape and its sonority are heard as if in a distorted echo'. These two movements belong together as do the first two of the 9th for very similar reasons. Happy Easter!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

There's no need to Hammer... home the point!

Talking about the scherzo of the Hammerklavier, I must say that the trio always makes me think of sea-sickness; you know, a windswept, stormy night on the ocean.........40 foot waves...........a howling wind.............& you've just consumed a dodgy lobster curry...........ooh..........excuse me, but I feel a bout of 'HK scherzo trio' coming on............!!

Or to give it its correct Latin name: Klavierus Mal-de-mereat Lobstercurryopolus Dodgytummyo Vomitissimat Beethovenitis Syndrome. (Dr. PDG)


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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:


Or to give it its correct Latin name: Klavierus Mal-de-mereat Lobstercurryopolus Dodgytummyo Vomitissimat Beethovenitis Syndrome. (Dr. PDG)

Thank goodness I've never had lobster curry! The trio of Op.106 reminds me of the Eroica first movement. Op.27 no.1 2nd movement(another work where the scherzo is placed 2nd) is also not recommended for those suffering from mal de mer!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

I think the scherzo of op.27 no.1 is mesmeric. Rod said somewhere about maybe putting up an MP3 of this movement - I'm curious to know how the double-stopping sounds on an 'authentic' piano.

Lobster curry & Easter eggs? Sounds like a great diet plan!

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I think the scherzo of op.27 no.1 is mesmeric. Rod said somewhere about maybe putting up an MP3 of this movement - I'm curious to know how the double-stopping sounds on an 'authentic' piano.

Lobster curry & Easter eggs? Sounds like a great diet plan!

What do you mean by double-stopping? - (that's a string instrument term)- are you referring to the hands playing in unison?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
When Rod talks about the fanfare of the adagio acting like a linking mechanism to the finale, again, I'm confused - the fanfare doesn't end the adagio!

No, but it occurs near the end. Why did you think B placed this unusual fanfare here, and not, say, at the beginning or in the middle. It serves a purpose of latently preparing the ear for nature of things that are to come.

Originally posted by PDG:

I was hoping that someone might know if Beethoven had ever commented on his choice of movement placement. Since it appears not, then all we can do is guess, &, as I've said, my big guessword is 'scansion'.

Not to my knowledge has B made any comments, but I honestly think their is no mystery to guess at.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I think the scherzo of op.27 no.1 is mesmeric. Rod said somewhere about maybe putting up an MP3 of this movement - I'm curious to know how the double-stopping sounds on an 'authentic' piano.

I can do it, but I'm not sure of the point you're making - the piece played on a Walter sounds technically as you would expect on a modern instrument, only the timbral nuances are different - there is no mechanical limitation with the Walter that would make the playing of this movement hazardous.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
What do you mean by double-stopping? - (that's a string instrument term)- are you referring to the hands playing in unison?

Oops! Faux pas. Yes, I meant the 'chopping' effect in the 2nd half of the mvt.

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PDG (Peter)

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can do it, but I'm not sure of the point you're making - the piece played on a Walter sounds technically as you would expect on a modern instrument, only the timbral nuances are different - there is no mechanical limitation with the Walter that would make the playing of this movement hazardous.

Fair enough. I am happy to take you at your word.

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Oops! Faux pas. Yes, I meant the 'chopping' effect in the 2nd half of the mvt.

No you don't! You mean the syncopation. The chopping effect is Beethoven played a la Chopin!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
No you don't! You mean the syncopation. The chopping effect is Beethoven played a la Chopin!

I am perfectly willing to engage in an exchange about my favourite Polish woodcutter!

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I am perfectly willing to engage in an exchange about my favourite Polish woodcutter!

No need to defend Chopin - I'm full of admiration for the man, it's just that many Chopin pianists do not make good Beethovians, and vice-versa. Had B lived another 2 years, it is possible that they could have met as Chopin was in Vienna in 1829.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Please don't stone me for saying it, but I think that Chopin's complete piano output is as great as Beethoven's. It is interesting that unlike Liszt, Chopin was not a huge admirer of Beethoven, yet he idolised Mozart.

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Please don't stone me for saying it, but I think that Chopin's complete piano output is as great as Beethoven's. It is interesting that unlike Liszt, Chopin was not a huge admirer of Beethoven, yet he idolised Mozart.

Don't worry,(though I suspect some here would think stoning too good for you, and a good old fashioned public burning much more appropiate!), for my part, I regard Chopin as being a great composer for the piano, but I don't think he reached the heights attained by Beethoven. Fine as his 3 sonatas are, they don't compare with the last Beethoven five in particular or even with many of the earlier ones. As for the concertos, they're more Hummel than Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-21-2001).]

[PDG]

Please! Anything but a burning. I've been scalded enough by Claire in the other forum!! I should have stated solo piano when comparing C with B. And yes, of course, B's sonata cycle is one of the great miracles of human achievement.

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PDG (Peter)