Middle movements of the 9th

[PDG]

I wonder why Beethoven placed the slow movement AFTER the scherzo in the 9th Symphony, when the opposite is the case in all the others. I know that this work is, romantically, supposed to represent the creation of life, & Mankind's growth & place in the overall scheme of things, etc., but in my mind's ear, if the first movement represents the chaos of creation, then what should perhaps follow is a calm before the storm (the scherzo), if you will. This calm would be the stillness & quiet of everything following the exertions of the universal forces (first movement). The scherzo then could be life emerging & running the gamut of birth, love, war, peace & death, before the finale unites the previous three movements (which it does, anyway) as a life-affirming testimony to the possibilities of universal brotherhood & the rest.

So why the scherzo before the adagio?

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
So why the scherzo before the adagio?

That's an interesting question, perhaps best answered by programming the cd to play movements 1,3,2,4 for comparison. It surely seems a less natural progression that way - it may be familiarity, but to me the scherzo and the 1st movement compliment each other as do the adagio and the finale. B adopts this plan with Op.106 and Op.97 as does Brahms in his 2nd piano concerto. It seems to me that different reasons can be given for the order of movements in each of these works, but surely the most convincing is that it is what the composer wanted. Beethoven was not a conventional composer - nor was Haydn who was experimenting with unusual keys, order of movements, instrumentation etc. a good 50 years earlier!

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-08-2001).]

[Chris]

He probably did it so people in the future would ask "Why did he do that?"

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I wonder why Beethoven placed the slow movement AFTER the scherzo in the 9th Symphony, when the opposite is the case in all the others. I know that this work is, romantically, supposed to represent the creation of life, & Mankind's growth & place in the overall scheme of things, etc., but in my mind's ear, if the first movement represents the chaos of creation, then what should perhaps follow is a calm before the storm (the scherzo), if you will. This calm would be the stillness & quiet of everything following the exertions of the universal forces (first movement). The scherzo then could be life emerging & running the gamut of birth, love, war, peace & death, before the finale unites the previous three movements (which it does, anyway) as a life-affirming testimony to the possibilities of universal brotherhood & the rest.

So why the scherzo before the adagio?

Why the romantic 'picture painting'? Remove questionable programme you have placed upon the work and you will find the obvious answer to your question in the music!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

You'll have to elaborate for me, Rod. If the 9th is considered as purely absolute music, it still begs the original question. Why did L. write it that way?

[This message has been edited by Serge (edited 04-09-2001).]

[~Leslie]

Ok, I'll bite. Because he wanted to continue building tension in his message, before dissolving his sugar in Rod's tea. ~

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
You'll have to elaborate for me, Rod. If the 9th is considered as purely absolute music, it still begs the original question. Why did L. write it that way?

[This message has been edited by Serge (edited 04-09-2001).]

Only the last movement, virtually by default, is not absolute music - this is unavoidable when words are used. The other movements are not consistant enough in their 'emotional impression' to fit a convenient programme. B was not one to place his music into the logical and emotional restrictions required in story writing - for example, the picture painted here of the scherzo as a 'storm' - how does the trio fit into this scenario? Even the first movement has lighter reprieves that B used typically in minor mode music (a mechanism that allows the reinforcement of the minor mode passages whilst simultaneously relieving the potential monotony of remaining in the minor mode too long) but would not fit logically in a 'story'. Of the adagio only the fanfare at the end is unusual, and could be seen as a necessary structural linking mechanism to the finale. If a 'programme' is to be made, I would say B was looking to produce the ultimate display in symphonic sonata-allegro, scherzo and variation forms for the first three movements - that would be worthy balance for the mammoth finale that questions them in its introduction. It is absolute music that is being questioned here. I see no story whatsoever linking the first three.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-09-2001).]

[Serge]

Ah ha.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
Ah ha.

Thanks for your most considered response!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
That's an interesting question, perhaps best answered by programming the cd to play movements 1,3,2,4 for comparison. It surely seems a less natural progression that way - it may be familiarity, but to me the scherzo and the 1st movement compliment each other as do the adagio and the finale. B adopts this plan with Op.106 and Op.97 as does Brahms in his 2nd piano concerto. It seems to me that different reasons can be given for the order of movements in each of these works, but surely the most convincing is that it is what the composer wanted. Beethoven was not a conventional composer - nor was Haydn who was experimenting with unusual keys, order of movements, instrumentation etc. a good 50 years earlier!

I don't think a convincing reason can be because "it's what the composer wanted". This doesn't explain the why. I sometimes do programme my CDs to play tracks 1,3,2 then 4, & this way sounds good to me, too. I don't think you can compare op.97 with the 9th because (a) the listening effect in a chamber work is not so traumatic as in a symphony, & (b) in the 'Archduke', the slow movement is only an andante, not an adagio. With op.106, the scherzo is so short that, again, comparison is inadvisable.
For my question, I am not particularly interested in what Brahms or Haydn did!
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PDG (Peter)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 04-10-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Only the last movement, virtually by default, is not absolute music - this is unavoidable when words are used. The other movements are not consistant enough in their 'emotional impression' to fit a convenient programme. B was not one to place his music into the logical and emotional restrictions required in story writing - for example, the picture painted here of the scherzo as a 'storm' - how does the trio fit into this scenario? Even the first movement has lighter reprieves that B used typically in minor mode music (a mechanism that allows the reinforcement of the minor mode passages whilst simultaneously relieving the potential monotony of remaining in the minor mode too long) but would not fit logically in a 'story'. Of the adagio only the fanfare at the end is unusual, and could be seen as a necessary structural linking mechanism to the finale. If a 'programme' is to be made, I would say B was looking to produce the ultimate display in symphonic sonata-allegro, scherzo and variation forms for the first three movements - that would be worthy balance for the mammoth finale that questions them in its introduction. It is absolute music that is being questioned here. I see no story whatsoever linking the first three.

No, the 9th is not absolute music, but it is not the finale I'm interested in here! I don't consider this symphony to be 'programme' music, but it is many people's interpretation of it. Neither would I call the scherzo a 'storm' - I was referring to the adagio as a possible calm before a storm. I don't say that there is anything unusual about the adagio(!), only that placed third in the work, instead of second, I think the opening of the finale possibly (just possibly) has its edge muted. Okay, this was probably intentional, but, again, does not answer the why. I agree about the balance of the first 3 movements within themselves, but don't believe it is necessarily lost if the scherzo & adagio are switched around. I, too, hear no 'story' in this work.

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I don't think a convincing reason can be because "it's what the composer wanted". This doesn't explain the why. I sometimes do programme my CDs to play tracks 1,3,2 then 4, & this way sounds good to me, too. I don't think you can compare op.97 with the 9th because (a) the listening effect in a chamber work is not so traumatic as in a symphony, & (b) in the 'Archduke', the slow movement is only an andante, not an adagio. With op.106, the scherzo is so short that, again, comparison is inadvisable.
For my question, I am not particularly interested in what Brahms or Haydn did!

I wasn't comparing Op.97 with the ninth - merely the order of movements and I don't accept your reasons regarding my comparison! - What do you mean by a Symphony being more traumatic than chamber music? Surely the point we are discussing is the order of movements and therefore my examples are highly relevant! You could ask your question of Op.59 no.1 as well. The answer has to be that the composer considered the musical effect to be enhanced by placing the Scherzo second. Why you could ask should a scherzo be the 3rd movement as though it is preordained ? - that was my point about Haydn, and much as it may not matter to you, I'm sure Beethoven would have been influenced by Haydn's experiments.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Chris:
He probably did it so people in the future would ask "Why did he do that?"

This is as good an explanation as I've heard so far!

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PDG (Peter)

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
I wasn't comparing Op.97 with the ninth - merely the order of movements and I don't accept your reasons regarding my comparison! - What do you mean by a Symphony being more traumatic than chamber music? Surely the point we are discussing is the order of movements and therefore my examples are highly relevant! You could ask your question of Op.59 no.1 as well. The answer has to be that the composer considered the musical effect to be enhanced by placing the Scherzo second. Why you could ask should a scherzo be the 3rd movement as though it is preordained ? - that was my point about Haydn, and much as it may not matter to you, I'm sure Beethoven would have been influenced by Haydn's experiments.

By 'traumatic', I mean the power of a symphony orchestra over a chamber ensemble. Of course there's no reason why a scherzo HAS to be placed third(!), only that in all his other symphonies (apart from the renegade 8th), this is the case. I cannot believe that Beethoven was in any way influenced by Haydn in writing the 9th!

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PDG (Peter)

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
...I don't say that there is anything unusual about the adagio(!), only that placed third in the work, instead of second, I think the opening of the finale possibly (just possibly) has its edge muted. Okay, this was probably intentional, but, again, does not answer the why. I agree about the balance of the first 3 movements within themselves, but don't believe it is necessarily lost if the scherzo & adagio are switched around. I, too, hear no 'story' in this work.

I don't know why you are persisting with questioning the placement of movements in this particular work. The adagio does not follow well immediately after the allegro - the contrast is too great, whereas the Scherzo placed 2nd, by its nature, acts as a 'bridge' between the allegro and the adagio, but is sufficiently a contrast after the allegro as not to induce monotony. Conversely the opening bars of the finale requires contrast to be effective, its effect would be lessened if it followed the scherzo. B clearly structured the movements to follow in the order they currently stand.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin