Middle movements of the 9th

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
By 'traumatic', I mean the power of a symphony orchestra over a chamber ensemble. Of course there's no reason why a scherzo HAS to be placed third(!), only that in all his other symphonies (apart from the renegade 8th), this is the case. I cannot believe that Beethoven was in any way influenced by Haydn in writing the 9th!

I don't deny that an orchestra is more powerful than a chamber ensemble, but that has nothing to do with the order of movements. I wouldn't describe the 8th as renegade !
Re. Haydn influence, you really are nit-picking there! - You don't surely deny that Haydn influenced Beethoven as a composer and therefore must have indirectly influenced the 9th ? Or are you suggesting that Beethoven suddenly forgot all he had learnt from Haydn and others and produced the 9th out of thin air? I would go as far as to suggest to all those who disregard Mozart and Haydn, that the achievements that we all so admire in B would not have been possible without those two much maligned (on this forum) and misunderstood gentlemen.

The reason for placing the Scherzo before the adagio is purely musical (the same reason he did it in other works, regardless of idiom) - Beethoven considered it produced the best effect, there is no other reason! He certainly didn't do it just to be different or to provoke a 21st century debate!
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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-10-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
I don't know why you are persisting with questioning the placement of movements in this particular work. The adagio does not follow well immediately after the allegro - the contrast is too great, whereas the Scherzo placed 2nd, by its nature, acts as a 'bridge' between the allegro and the adagio, but is sufficiently a contrast after the allegro as not to induce monotony. Conversely the opening bars of the finale requires contrast to be effective, its effect would be lessened if it followed the scherzo. B clearly structured the movements to follow in the order they currently stand.

Maybe I am persisting because I've yet to see an answer to my original question. Everything else you've written is, of course, based on your opinion, except that Beethoven "structured the movements to follow in the order they currently stand," which is rather obvious, & a tad unhelpful!
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PDG (Peter)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 04-10-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't deny that an orchestra is more powerful than a chamber ensemble, but that has nothing to do with the order of movements. I wouldn't describe the 8th as renegade !
Re. Haydn influence, you really are nit-picking there! - You don't surely deny that Haydn influenced Beethoven as a composer and therefore must have indirectly influenced the 9th ? Or are you suggesting that Beethoven suddenly forgot all he had learnt from Haydn and others and produced the 9th out of thin air? I would go as far as to suggest to all those who disregard Mozart and Haydn, that the achievements that we all so admire in B would not have been possible without those two much maligned (on this forum) and misunderstood gentlemen.
The reason for placing the Scherzo before the adagio is purely musical (the same reason he did it in other works, regardless of idiom) - Beethoven considered it produced the best effect, there is no other reason! He certainly didn't do it just to be different or to provoke a 21st century debate!

What is this? National Have A Go At PDG Day?!
I am not nit-picking! Where on Earth do you hear Haydn's influence in the 9th Symphony? You are wrong to assume that I "disregard" Haydn (I don't). And I adore Mozart. It is rather silly to ask me if I think Beethoven created the 9th out of thin air. If Haydn's influence is so strong, then why didn't Beethoven write the 9th 10 years earlier?

I am not provoking a 21st Century debate (although if I'm not supposed to do that on these boards, then please let me know). I merely asked a question. I don't think the provocation is all one way here.

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
What is this? National Have A Go At PDG Day?!
I am not nit-picking! Where on Earth do you hear Haydn's influence in the 9th Symphony? You are wrong to assume that I "disregard" Haydn (I don't). And I adore Mozart. It is rather silly to ask me if I think Beethoven created the 9th out of thin air. If Haydn's influence is so strong, then why didn't Beethoven write the 9th 10 years earlier?

I am not provoking a 21st Century debate (although if I'm not supposed to do that on these boards, then please let me know). I merely asked a question. I don't think the provocation is all one way here.

No one's having a go ! I just don't agree with you, which is fair enough as it is what the forum is for - to discuss, not necessarily agree. Charles Rosen says in his 'The Classical Style' - "The forms of late Beethoven descend clearly and directly from Haydn's technique of allowing the music to grow out of a small kernel, the simplest, most condensed of musical thoughts announced, generally at the very opening." That sounds like a fair description of the first movement of the 9th Symphony to me.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:

Maybe I am persisting because I've yet to see an answer to my original question. Everything else you've written is, of course, based on your opinion, except that Beethoven "structured the movements to follow in the order they currently stand," which is rather obvious, & a tad unhelpful![/B][/QUOTE]

All of my 'opinions' as they relate to Beethoven, though cumbersomely stated, are based on reasoned grounds - I don't just make things up as I go along! Your question was why did B place the scherzo second and the adagio 3rd? The question itself is rather bizarre - you could go on to question the order of movements for any of B's works - and it would be, all in all, a pointless excercise. The answer you HAVE been given - the order is based on aesthetic and structural grounds. If you want a full thesis on your question, with all due respect, I suspect a professor would deem it too naiive to deserve one.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-11-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
All of my 'opinions' as they relate to Beethoven, though cumbersomely stated, are based on reasoned grounds - I don't just make things up as I go along! Your question was why did B place the scherzo second and the adagio 3rd? The question itself is rather bizarre - you could go on to question the order of movements for any of B's works - and it would be, all in all, a pointless excercise. The answer you HAVE been given - the order is based on aesthetic and structural grounds. If you want a full thesis on your question, with all due respect, I suspect a professor would deem it too naiive to deserve one.

Thanks for the due respect(!). You call my question 'naive' & 'bizarre'; Peter, in his first reply, called it 'interesting'. This adjective I prefer. No, I don't want a 'full thesis' on the subject - should I change my mind, however, I'll forward to you a copy ASAP!

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Thanks for the due respect(!). You call my question 'naive' & 'bizarre'; Peter, in his first reply, called it 'interesting'. This adjective I prefer. No, I don't want a 'full thesis' on the subject - should I change my mind, however, I'll forward to you a copy ASAP!

I still think it interesting as it made me think of other works as well that have this movement plan and why the composer wrote it as he did - so you have indeed stimulated some thought. I've tried to suggest reasons why Beethoven placed the Scherzo second and can do no better I'm afraid - as you don't think much of our replies, do you have any ideas?

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

It's not that I don't think much of your replies! I appreciate them, but they are, for the most part, conjectural. Of course, I don't know the answer to my question (if I did, I wouldn't have asked it!), but when Rod talks about the structures of the movements lending themselves to the overall effect, I'm confused. In my view, a plausible explanation for the scherzo being placed before the adagio is that the slow movement placed second in the work would give the impression of two long, sprawling movements side by side, & this could have a slight 'dragging' effect on the symphony. In other words, my guess is that it's a matter of scansion, not structure. When Rod talks about the fanfare of the adagio acting like a linking mechanism to the finale, again, I'm confused - the fanfare doesn't end the adagio!

If we talk about key relationships, the work seems somehow uneven. The opening allegro is in D minor. Then the scherzo kicks off..........in D minor! The adagio is in B flat. Then the finale starts...........in B flat(!), before, of course, proceeding to the triumphant D major. One of the reasons for my curiosity is that, on the face of it, D minor/B flat/D minor/B flat/ D major for the 4 (5) movements looks more interesting than the sequence we have.

I certainly don't question Beethoven's musical thinking (please...........!!!), but this topic has always intrigued me. At the beginning of this chain, I was hoping that someone might know if Beethoven had ever commented on his choice of movement placement. Since it appears not, then all we can do is guess, &, as I've said, my big guessword is 'scansion'.



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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
It's not that I don't think much of your replies! I appreciate them, but they are, for the most part, conjectural.

I don't think that saying the first movement and Scherzo are complimentary or that the 3rd movement provides the best preparation for the choral finale is conjecture! I think a comparison with the Hammerklavier sonata is valid as both Scherzos come before long adagio movements and are in a sense parodies of their respective first movements. One point that has been missed is that both the 3rd and 4th movements of the 9th are sets of variations.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think that saying the first movement and Scherzo are complimentary or that the 3rd movement provides the best preparation for the choral finale is conjecture![QUOTE]

Wrong! This is a conjectural position.

I think a comparison with the Hammerklavier sonata is valid as both Scherzos come before long adagio movements and are in a sense parodies of their respective first movements.

Agreed, although this has little to do with the question in hand.

One point that has been missed is that both the 3rd and 4th movements of the 9th are sets of variations.

Not missed by me. Over the last few days I have played the 9th half a dozen times, & each time I hear it, the more humble I feel. This phenomenal, but PHENOMENAL, aural kaleidoscopic meisterwerk, granted to mankind from a DEAF man, surely sums up, for those of us willing to be summed up, that, within those restrictive chains which we call 'human suffering', all is ultimately possible. And it is. Thanks to Beethoven.

Happy Easter.
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PDG (Peter)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 04-13-2001).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by PDG:
Agreed, although this has little to do with the question in hand.

One point that has been missed is that both the 3rd and 4th movements of the 9th are sets of variations.

Not missed by me. Over the last few days I have played the 9th half a dozen times, & each time I hear it, the more humble I feel. This phenomenal, but PHENOMENAL, aural kaleidoscopic meisterwerk, granted to mankind from a DEAF man, surely sums up, for those of us willing to be summed up, that, within those restrictive chains which we call 'human suffering', all is ultimately possible. And it is. Thanks to Beethoven.

Happy Easter.

How true. Very well said.
Happy Easter to you too.

[Peter]

[quote]Originally posted by PDG:

Peter: I think a comparison with the Hammerklavier sonata is valid as both Scherzos come before long adagio movements and are in a sense parodies of their respective first movements.


PDG: Agreed, although this has little to do with the question in hand.

I think it has everything to do with the question in hand - B placed the movements in that order in both works for exactly the same reasons - both scherzos parody their first movements and both adagios are followed by complex finales. The greatest Sonata and the greatest Symphony share the same movement format!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Peter, I find it difficult to think of the scherzo of the 9th as a parody - I think it has more worth than that! Of course I agree about the movement similarities between the Hammerklavier & the 9th, but I would go back to my point about scansion; just compare the respective lengths of the scherzo & adagio of the sonata with those of the symphony!

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Peter, I find it difficult to think of the scherzo of the 9th as a parody - I think it has more worth than that! Of course I agree about the movement similarities between the Hammerklavier & the 9th, but I would go back to my point about scansion; just compare the respective lengths of the scherzo & adagio of the sonata with those of the symphony!

Scherzo literally means joke, and this the greatest scherzo ever written is full of humour with the wonderful use of timpani for example. The very opening mimicks the great theme of the opening movement with the same descending D minor chord. Antony Hopkins says 'this opening coming as it does after the last tremendous D minor arpeggio theme in the first movement establishes a link that the ear acknowledges even though the mind may be unwilling to admit any thematic connection.' This is deliberate and Beethoven wants this connection made with the first two movements - change the order and this is lost.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Thank you. This response is enlightening.

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PDG (Peter)