Bonn and works attributed to Beethoven

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


In answer to Rod, I believe that Beethoven wrote 2 works during the time he was associated with Haydn. Thus 3 at Bonn before Haydn and a further 2 in Vienna = 5. And at this time Haydn then wrote to Max Franz (wrongly) claiming all 5 had been written by Beethoven under himself in Vienna.

Regards

Robert

So can you let us know clearly the works you believe are genuine Beethoven from this period as I've lost track of this discussion, which we have had more than once!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Hi Peter,

You ask if I credit Beethoven with composing anything before he left for Vienna. Yes, certainly. In the catalogue kept by Luchesi from 1785 onwards and kept up to at least 1791 (now at Modena and referenced C53.1) there is credit given by Luchesi to 3 works by Beethoven prior to his leaving for Vienna including a fugue.

(You will also be aware that Haydn wrote to Max Franz claiming Beethoven had made good progress under him and had written 5 works in Vienna under his tutelage. (Hadyn also wrote in the same letter asking Max Franz for money related to Beethoven). In fact 3 of the 5 works Haydn claimed were written by Beethoven in Vienna had already been written before Beethoven left Bonn). Beethoven learned nothing from Haydn. Yet another example of the misinformation we are dealing with.

Yes, Wegeler and Simrock refer to a Beethoven cantata. But Bonn chapel is not Mergentheim. Mergentheim was the home of Max Franz. I have little doubt that Beethoven was involved in these two cantatas (as I have suggested all along). But they were not composed there. It seems that they are both refering to questions of orchestration/scoring difficulties. This is interesting. Is it possible that Beethoven was involved in these cantatas to the extent of orchestrating them ? I suggest this as a real possibility since (as you say) he and Simrock were at Mergentheim. Why would they be there unless this cantata was an important one - a cantata that Beethoven was personally involved in overseeing ? This is why (I suggest) his name is traditionally associated with actually composing the piece. But the difficulties (and Beethoven was only human, after all) were therefore not those of the composition, but of the orchestration which, he, Beethoven, was now supervising. In such a responsible situation it cannot be a matter of surprise that the young Beethoven had difficulties.

I am entirely open to a Luchesi/Beethoven co-operation on these two cantatas and the more one looks at it the more I am sure this is the correct solution.

I take your point on Beethoven's use of material from these quartets. He was definitely aware of them. They meant something to him and he used them.

In answer to Rod, I believe that Beethoven wrote 2 works during the time he was associated with Haydn. Thus 3 at Bonn before Haydn and a further 2 in Vienna = 5. And at this time Haydn then wrote to Max Franz (wrongly) claiming all 5 had been written by Beethoven under himself in Vienna.

Regards

Robert

My understanding is that the sketch for a sinfonia in C minor predates the quartets.

In commisioing the cantatas the Lesegeselleschaft expressed a wish that "one of the excellent musicians who were members of the society or a composer from elsewhere" write the music. The influential Waldstein was a member and it is through him that Beethoven received the commission, thanks for which came years later with the dedication of Op.53.

Why would Waldstein have had such faith in Beethoven had he produced just 3 minor works? Why would Max Franz have sent him at his own expense to study with Haydn on such a paltry offering, especially as there is no evidence that he held Beethoven in any greater favour than anyone else? Why not send Reicher or one of the Rombergs who were producing symphonies, quartets, operas?

How is it that Beethoven's name is on the manuscript of the cantatas and quartets, not Luchesi? Why do Simrock and Wegeler both fail to mention Luchesi's involvement? Why did Beethoven use music from these works years later? In the cases of Reicha, Perner and the Rombergs was Luchesi also writing their music for the court chapel?

The points in reference to Haydn do nothing to further your argument - why would Max Franz have been surprised at Beethoven learning nothing from Haydn if he knew Haydn was a fraud? Why would Beethoven have gone to study with Haydn in the first place as he presumably had a far greater master already in Bonn? Beethoven learnt little directly from Haydn simply because Haydn was not a good teacher, nothing unusual or suspiscious in that.

All you have is assumptions and suggestions, but not an iota of proof that Luchesi wrote these Cantatas, whilst all the evidence that exists suggests that Beethoven wrote them.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

...All you have is assumptions and suggestions, but not an iota of proof that Luchesi wrote these Cantatas, whilst all the evidence that exists suggests that Beethoven wrote them.

Quite so. There is nothing in all this to turn me away from the status quo.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Peter and Rod,

I don't mind you saying this at all. You are keen to attribute these works to Beethoven because, well, because they are traditionally attributed to him. It does not matter to you that Beethoven himself does not claim to have written them. Nor does it matter to you that the 19 year old Beethoven is somehow prefered before everyone else including even the Kapellmeister of Bonn chapel - one of the greatest chapels in all the Empire. No, you have your version of events that has come to you without barely a reference to Luchesi anywhere in the literature and no matter what reasonable case is made for Beethoven actually assisting Luchesi you wish to exclude Luchesi from any involvement. Thus the credit is entirely Beethoven's. Such is the way that you wish to interpret the evidence.

Well, let me reply in more detail later today. Peter, you are making points on issues in your last post that have little to do with the one at hand. The issue will be focused in my next post of whether the available evidence supports the tradition that Beethoven was composer of these two cantatas which are today generally attributed to him. Or whether, in fact, Beethoven was not the real composer and was instead an assistant in that process.

If a fair minded reader of my next post makes their judgement on this question I am sure they will see the reasonableness of the Luchesi/Beethoven partnership. I hope you too will (finally) be one of them.

Regards

Robert

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Peter and Rod,

It not really a matter of who gets the credit, the music just sounds like Beethoven to me, regardless of any historical corroboration or lack of it. They sound more so than some third party arrangements Beethoven's later music that were corrected by B himself, which don't really interest me so much.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin