Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Bonn and works attributed to Beethoven

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Bonn and works attributed to Beethoven

    Further to some very helpful correspondence on Beethoven in his youth at Bonn with Dr Herttrecht of tbe Beethovenhaus archives, separate correspondence on the subject of the Bonn music archives with his predecessor, Dr S. Brandenburg, and taking in to account information received today by email from Mr Giorgio Taboga in Italy and his various musical colleagues, I think it fair to share here the results of a fair and open examination of issues related to the true composer of various works today generally attributed to the young Beethoven while he was at Bonn.

    In response to a question I asked of Dr Herttrecht as to whether Beethoven was the composer of the two cantatas generally credited to him, his reply was that he firmly believes (as do others) that they are rightly credited to the young Beethoven and he cites what he believes is supporting evidence including documents of the local literary society in Bonn written at this time, whose Minutes still survive proving Beethoven's relationship with them and which, he says, strongly indicate that he, Beethoven, really was the true composer of these two Cantatas. (I found Dr Herttrecht to be most helpful, open and patient in dealing with a whole range of related points in his reply).

    In response to a question asked separately to Dr S Brandenburg of what verifiable date the Bonn music archives arrived at Modena, Italy, (which Dr Brandenburg in 1987 had suggested in the Beethoven yearbook of that date was around 1836) his reply was that he had not worked on this subject for many years. No verification/confirmation was given to his suggested date. He suggested that these issues could perhaps be best dealt with by asking other researchers and libraries.
    I pointed out to Dr Brandenburg in my reply that the Bonn Chapel was closed between 1794 and 1814, and that therefore the Bonn music archives should surely have been returned to Bonn Chapel (whose property they were). And I again pointed out that it is vital to know why these hugely important manuscripts were not returned to Bonn in that year of 1814. Where were these archives between that date and 1836 ? And why were they still there ? Dr Brandenburg was unable to assist further.

    I have also today received a letter from my colleague Giorgio Taboga in Italy which provides further contrary evidence against the traditional attribution to Beethoven of these above two mentioned cantatas.

    Contrary to popular belief (including the views of the Beethovenhaus at Bonn) there is in fact no proof that the Literary Society of Bonn (the Lesegesellschaft) twice commissioned Beethoven to compose these cantatas. Though the Minutes of the Lesegesellshaft have certainly survived, as the Beethovenhaus says they do NOT show evidence of any such commission being given to Beethoven by them for the composition of two cantatas.

    The two cantatas for the death of Emperor Joseph 2nd and for the accession of Emperor Leopold 2nd were simply NOT commissioned by the literary society of Bonn, despite Beethoven being recorded as having been assisted financially during the time when they were made.

    Also, these same cantata manuscripts today attributed to the young Beethoven are said by Bonn to have been 'lost' until 1884. No reply has yet been received to my question as to the location of these manuscripts during those decades. Nor has their finder been identified or the place where they, in 1884, were found.

    (G. Taboga was in fact the first researcher in modern times to contest Beethoven's paternity on these two cantatas. He did so suggesting Beethoven had actually helped Kaoellemeister Luchesi to write these same cantatas. Taboga also showed that the Elector Max Franz, having at his ready disposal the best composer of sacred music in the Rhineland with his own Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi would not logically have used in his place the 19 year old youth Beethoven to have composed them (such things being part of the official and normal duty of the Kapellmeister) and nor would he have sought a cheaper source for writing these two great official cantatas for two Emperors.

    Beethoven never once claimed to have written these two Cantatas (which is itself surely of significance).

    In the 'Beethoven Companion' is found the following. "On the music found in these two cantatas, wrtten in Bonn, the final chorus of the Cantata to Leopold II and the Soprano Aria with chorus 'Da stiegen die Meschen' are immediately impressive and surprisingly mature" ('The Beethoven Companion' -London Boston)

    The Bonn music publisher Simrock (a contemporary of these events) wrote that the Cantata for the accession of Leopold was rehearsed in the Bonn Chapel but was not actually performed there. (Kapellmeister Luchesi was, of course, the man with authority in regard to use of the orchestra at Bonn Chapel). It is therefore a virtual certainty that this very cantata today attributed to Beethoven was actually commissioned from Kapellmeister Luchesi by the Elector Max Franz and is one and the same work as that which was performed at the accession of the Emperor in Frankfurt am Main on 9th October 1790 and therefore not a cantata commonly said to have been 'maybe by Zumsteeg'. In a work by Joseph Heinz Heibl ('Mozart - Chronicle of a Life', 1991, p.116 is also found the following -

    'October 9th 1790. Leopold 2nd's coronation in the cathedral at Frankfurt - where probably was performed the cantata 'Auf die Erhebung Leopolds zum deutshen Kayser of Zmsteeg'

    That cantata title is the same in German as that of WoO88.

    In 1783 Neefe wrote to 'Cramer's Magazine' informing readers that among Luchesi's productions at that time in Bonn were '4 quartets with piano' (3 of which have since wrongly been attributed to Beethoven in WoO36), and a fourth having falsely been attributed to Mozart, known today as KV478. In fact, the only evidence supportive of WoO36 being works by Beethoven (mentioned in Holschneider) is their supposed presence in Beethoven's Nachlass. But Kinsky-Halm has shown that even this attribution is an error. N.166 of the Beethoven Nachlass is actually only ONE quartet in 3 parts and NOT three quartets, a version of the quintet Op.4 that appeared as Op.75 or Op.16, these all deriving from the famous 'Settimino'. Also, according to Otto Muelbrecht (in his 'Beethoven and his Works'), printed Lipsia, 1866, p.113 the 3 quartets must according to him have been composed in 1796 since only by that date was Beethoven regarded as being able to produce works of this quality. It is clear therefore that these works today attributed so readily to Beethoven were not, in fact, by Beethoven.

    In addition, both Reis and Holschneider refused to accept that Beethoven was the author of WoO36. In conclusion, we can say only that WoO36, WoO37 and Hess 13) are NOT autographs by the young Beethoven but were in fact written by the same copyist known to have made corrections on WoO4. A written attribution that can be found to Beethoven on the manuscript of WoO37 has been scored out and then wrongly repeated.

    Regards

    Robert


    [This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 01-04-2006).]

    [This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 01-04-2006).]

    #2
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:

    Contrary to popular belief (including the views of the Beethovenhaus at Bonn) there is in fact no proof that the Literary Society of Bonn (the Lesegesellschaft) twice commissioned Beethoven to compose these cantatas.


    So is Taboga suggesting Dr Herttrecht is lying or incompetent?


    He did so suggesting Beethoven had actually helped Kaoellemeister Luchesi to write these same cantatas. Taboga also showed that the Elector Max Franz, having at his ready disposal the best composer of sacred music in the Rhineland with his own Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi would not logically have used in his place the 19 year old youth Beethoven to have composed them


    So if Luchesi was the best composer of sacred music around, why did he need Beethoven to help him write them?


    ------------------
    'Man know thyself'
    'Man know thyself'

    Comment


      #3
      I suggest based purely on hearing that the cantatas and piano quartets (both of which he quoted from in undisputed later works) are Beethoven's. At the very least they would have to be his arrangements as I have heard no other contemporary composer do things quite the Beethoven way.



      ------------------
      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

      Comment


        #4
        What about the story whereby Haydn was apparently impressed by the Joseph Cantata?

        ------------------
        "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
        http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

        Comment


          #5

          Peter,

          I am suggesting that if the surviving Minutes of the Literary Society of Bonn really record Beethoven being commissioned by them to write at budget price for these Emperors two cantatas (as is claimed by the Beethovenhaus in Bonn and as is popularly believed) the onus is on these people to show us evidence from these very same Minutes. These Minutes do not prove any such commission despite them proving that Beethoven was certainly helped, financially, by them, during the time that they were being written.

          In answer to your question of why Luchesi needed Beethoven to help him in the writing of these two cantatas, the short answer is that he probably did not. But Beethoven was close to finishing his studies. He was soon 20 years old. And he was undoubtedly regarded as a talented pupil. That is why (as suggested before) these two cantatas were written by Luchesi and the young Beethoven assisted in this process.

          Robert

          Comment


            #6

            Rod,

            Beethoven learned like everyone else. He was greatly influenced by those who taught him - as is normal for every student. One of the great influences on his early musical life was his own Kapellmeister, Andrea Luchesi. If you have a chance to hear Luchesi's Sonatas for Piano and Violin, Op.1 you will be amazed how much like Beethoven they are - though written around the same time as Beethoven's birth. Such a reasonable assertion is not meant to force you to accept it.

            Beethoven emerged from the influences of undoubtedly some of the greatest musicians of his time. Luchesi was important. So were others. It is hardly surprising that he is on record as crediting others who undoubtedly helped him on a daily basis. Luchesi was the top man with a thousand things to do. That is perfectly normal.

            Robert

            Comment


              #7

              Hadyn certainly did not hear it at Bonn. From where does this story come ? Haydn was in Bonn in 1790, for sure. Did he possibly read the score ? But Beethoven at no time claims he wrote it.

              Robert

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by robert newman:

                He was soon 20 years old.

                Robert
                By his own accounting, he was maybe 14. This needs to be born in mind.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Droell:
                  By his own accounting, he was maybe 14. This needs to be born in mind.
                  As I think of it, Beethoven's parents & immediate neighbors also played a part. They knew his true age, even if Ludwig himself did not. It's one thing to send a man a year or two shy of majority out into the world, it's quite another for a child of 14 to contemplate leaving home. How many citizens of Bonn knew the secret, I wonder?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by robert newman:

                    Peter,

                    I am suggesting that if the surviving Minutes of the Literary Society of Bonn really record Beethoven being commissioned by them to write at budget price for these Emperors two cantatas (as is claimed by the Beethovenhaus in Bonn and as is popularly believed) the onus is on these people to show us evidence from these very same Minutes. These Minutes do not prove any such commission despite them proving that Beethoven was certainly helped, financially, by them, during the time that they were being written.

                    In answer to your question of why Luchesi needed Beethoven to help him in the writing of these two cantatas, the short answer is that he probably did not. But Beethoven was close to finishing his studies. He was soon 20 years old. And he was undoubtedly regarded as a talented pupil. That is why (as suggested before) these two cantatas were written by Luchesi and the young Beethoven assisted in this process.

                    Robert
                    Do you credit Beethoven with writing anything himself before arriving in Vienna? You say the Beethovenhaus must prove this, they say they have evidence - so where aside from your assumption is your proof that Luchesi wrote the cantatas? As it is both Wegeler and Simrock refer to a cantata by Beethoven rehearsed at Mergentheim.

                    Nor must it be forgotten that Beethoven was not the only young composer at Bonn - the Rombergs already had a reputation and Anton Reicha was writing vocal and instrumental music for the court chapel. So why not Beethoven?

                    Simrock says "In Mergentheim I only remember that he (Beethoven) wrote a cantata there which we rehearsed several times but did not perform in court. We had all manner of protest of the difficult places before us, and he asserted that each player must be able to perform his part correctly; we proved we couldn't simply because all the figures were completely unusual, therein lay the difficulty"

                    Unlikely surely that 'the greatest composer of sacred music in the Rhineland' Luchesi would have written an unplayable piece for his musicians? Isn't this quality of writing difficult music something that is characteristic of Beethoven?

                    Regarding the piano quartets, there is a sketch by Beethoven for a discarded sinfonia in c minor, the theme appears in the 2nd movement of the 1st quartet.


                    ------------------
                    'Man know thyself'



                    [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 01-05-2006).]
                    'Man know thyself'

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by robert newman:

                      But Beethoven at no time claims he wrote it.

                      Robert
                      Beethoven was occasionally surprised to learn he had written a work as in the case of the 32 variations, that he made no claim on these Cantatas means nothing other than he probably didn't value them highly. Luchesi didn't claim credit for any of the works you attribute to him but of course that is different.

                      ------------------
                      'Man know thyself'

                      [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 01-04-2006).]
                      'Man know thyself'

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by robert newman:

                        Hadyn certainly did not hear it at Bonn. From where does this story come ? Haydn was in Bonn in 1790, for sure. Did he possibly read the score ? But Beethoven at no time claims he wrote it.

                        Robert
                        Actually, Haydn visited Bonn twice: december 1790 and July 1792.
                        Both texts for the Cantatas were written by Anton Severin Averdonk, a poet as young as Beethoven: 20 years old.

                        It is not unbelivable or a surprise that Beethoven would be designated to write the music, having in mind that Neefe (in my very personal and humble opinion, with a strongest influence than Luchessi on BeethovenĀ“s musical and intelectual development), had a very good reputation inside the "Reading Society".

                        Regards

                        [This message has been edited by Luis Mariano (edited 01-04-2006).]

                        [This message has been edited by Luis Mariano (edited 01-04-2006).]

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I forgot to mention that Count Waldstein (Everybody knows who this man was in Beethoven's life), was also a member of the "Lesegesellschaft".

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Luis Mariano:
                            Actually, Haydn visited Bonn twice: december 1790 and July 1792.
                            Both texts for the Cantatas were written by Anton Severin Averdonk, a poet as young as Beethoven: 20 years old.

                            It is not unbelivable or a surprise that Beethoven would be designated to write the music, having in mind that Neefe (in my very personal and humble opinion, with a strongest influence than Luchessi on BeethovenĀ“s musical and intelectual development), had a very good reputation inside the "Reading Society".

                            Regards

                            I always assumed Beethoven must have presented Haydn with the music to support his tuition request. In light of this discussion one wonders what Haydn saw of Beethoven previous output, if indeed he actually composed a single piece before this time!

                            ------------------
                            "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                            http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                            Comment


                              #15

                              Hi Peter,

                              You ask if I credit Beethoven with composing anything before he left for Vienna. Yes, certainly. In the catalogue kept by Luchesi from 1785 onwards and kept up to at least 1791 (now at Modena and referenced C53.1) there is credit given by Luchesi to 3 works by Beethoven prior to his leaving for Vienna including a fugue.

                              (You will also be aware that Haydn wrote to Max Franz claiming Beethoven had made good progress under him and had written 5 works in Vienna under his tutelage. (Hadyn also wrote in the same letter asking Max Franz for money related to Beethoven). In fact 3 of the 5 works Haydn claimed were written by Beethoven in Vienna had already been written before Beethoven left Bonn). Beethoven learned nothing from Haydn. Yet another example of the misinformation we are dealing with.

                              Yes, Wegeler and Simrock refer to a Beethoven cantata. But Bonn chapel is not Mergentheim. Mergentheim was the home of Max Franz. I have little doubt that Beethoven was involved in these two cantatas (as I have suggested all along). But they were not composed there. It seems that they are both refering to questions of orchestration/scoring difficulties. This is interesting. Is it possible that Beethoven was involved in these cantatas to the extent of orchestrating them ? I suggest this as a real possibility since (as you say) he and Simrock were at Mergentheim. Why would they be there unless this cantata was an important one - a cantata that Beethoven was personally involved in overseeing ? This is why (I suggest) his name is traditionally associated with actually composing the piece. But the difficulties (and Beethoven was only human, after all) were therefore not those of the composition, but of the orchestration which, he, Beethoven, was now supervising. In such a responsible situation it cannot be a matter of surprise that the young Beethoven had difficulties.

                              I am entirely open to a Luchesi/Beethoven co-operation on these two cantatas and the more one looks at it the more I am sure this is the correct solution.

                              I take your point on Beethoven's use of material from these quartets. He was definitely aware of them. They meant something to him and he used them.

                              In answer to Rod, I believe that Beethoven wrote 2 works during the time he was associated with Haydn. Thus 3 at Bonn before Haydn and a further 2 in Vienna = 5. And at this time Haydn then wrote to Max Franz (wrongly) claiming all 5 had been written by Beethoven under himself in Vienna.

                              Regards

                              Robert


                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X