Beethoven's Handwriting

[robert newman]

Happy New Year to everyone !

I would like to ask opinions on Beethoven's handwriting -

1. It's not uncommon for people to write very roughly when making notes or drafting a letter etc. But in the case of Beethoven his finished manuscripts are often described as being very scruffy/almost impossibly difficult to read etc. Why do you think this was (apparently) often a feature of his scores ?

2. In some cases Beethoven's handwriting on scores appears to have been quite neat because there are several works which have in the past been attributed to Mozart but then (wrongly) to the young Beethoven. For example, KV25a and KV511a were first credited as being works by Mozart in the Koechel list of 1905 before later (wrongly) being attributed to the young Beethoven. Since these manuscripts are not in poor handwriting I can only assume the handwriting of young Beethoven while at Bonn was often almost as neat as that of the young Mozart. But is this correct ?

3. Beethoven is famous for working many, many times on a compositon by making various drafts/versions (sometimes of even a single motif) over a long period of time. Mozart is commonly credited with being able to compose at extraordinary speed and with great precision (though this reputation may not actually be justified). For example the famous story that the boy Mozart wrote by ear the famous Allegri 'Miserere' being sung by the papal choir during his visit to Rome and was later granted an award there for this 'phenomenal feat' does not mention that the work was actually available in Vienna's cathedral years before, having been specially requested as a copy by the Emperor Leopold before Mozart was even born. Thus, Mozart may even have learned it before he went to Rome. Secondly, a version of the 'Miserere' was also specially made at the request of Mozart's music teacher, Padre Martini, who was definitely in posession of it long before Mozart went to hear the papal choir. Thirdly, (contrary to popular belief) Mozart actually heard the piece twice while he was in Rome and did not finish it until after the second hearing, even according to his sister's official version of the story - she herself in Salzburg at the time - and Wolfgang could quite easily have already been fairly familiar with it before performing one of his 'evidences of genius' to further his reputation. The piece itself is actually not a hugely difficult one if one has already some familiarity with a copy. But fourthly, this reputation of Mozart to work phenomenally quickly is contradicted by several facts. When the 'Haffner' serenade was returned to Mozart in Vienna during the early 1780's by his father from Salzburg (which Mozart claims to have written) he admits in his own acknowledgement letter 'I did not remember even a single note of what I wrote'which, if true, is strange since it's composition date is less than 6 months beforehand.

To compose a major work quickly and to arrange it for orchestra are two quite different things. I personally think Beethoven was as able to write fast as Mozart in certain respects. The very fact that Beethoven's writing is less neat than that of Mozart does not prove anything by itself. (Errors are quite common in Mozart manuscripts as are cuts/alterations).

Again, some highly intelligent people have atrocious handwriting. (Doctors for example are famed for their poor handwriting in making prescriptions for a pharmacist).

And there are some who claim that the character of a person can be determined by the way in which they write. I've not personally read any such analysis of Beethoven's handwriting. Has anyone here ?

Regards


Robert

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Happy New Year to everyone !

I would like to ask opinions on Beethoven's handwriting -

1. It's not uncommon for people to write very roughly when making notes or drafting a letter etc. But in the case of Beethoven his finished manuscripts are often described as being very scruffy/almost impossibly difficult to read etc. Why do you think this was (apparently) often a feature of his scores ?

Dear Robert;

I have had the privilge to examine several of Beethoven's manuscripts and sketchbooks personally. Though his handwriting tended to be rather "scuffy," it also tended to be very, very neat in places where he returned and made corrections.

We must remember that the actual process of putting the notes on the paper was a very slow and tedious affair in those days. The hand can not possibly keep up with the flood of ideas in the composer's mind. In Beethoven's case, he developed a short hand to speed things up.

Hofrat

[robert newman]

Yes, thank you very much Hofrat. I'm sure you're right.

(It's remarkable that Mozart's 'amazing achievement' at Rome with him supposedly copying out the Allegri 'Miserere'as he was listening to it (which was widely boasted about about to further his reputation by Leopold and others) has never caused it to be an integral part of the Koechel list of Mozart's works/arrangements. There are surviving two such 'Mozart' versions of the Allegri 'Miserere' (both of them with comments written on them in the early 19th century - one in Berlin) but the earliest of these is so full of musical mistakes that the anonymous writer speaks of 'the choir must have been singing a great many wrong notes that day' - and even the Mozart industry has never dared to publish it. It is surely more likely that the choir that day in Rome sang this famous work perfectly well and that Mozart's efforts were far from musically perfect ? The very fame of doing what he supposedly did is nevertheless enough for the truth to be embellished about his almost infallible musicianship.

I am very glad that the Beethoven sketches and manuscripts show us a man working over and over to perfect his ideas. Besides, if a person has a manuscript in front of him which he wishes to portray as having been composed by him it's easy to understand how the copy he makes and signs has far fewer mistakes than usual. This idea of Mozart composing as if he was 'taking dictation' is contradicted by considering that his own genuine works are frequently as full of mistakes as those of other composers.

In Sweden in 1789 Joseph Martin Kraus wrote music for an official government function which uses an arrangement of the March from Mozart's 'Idomeneo' (written in 1781). Fine. But Mozart's opera was not actually published until 1792, fully 3 years later. How did Kraus manage to do this ?

The two men are assumed to have met in 1783 (when they were both lived near one another in Vienna) - at which time Mozart must have given a copy of the March to Kraus, which he later used in 1789. No manuscript of this March has ever been found in Kraus's papers (who died in 1792). It was not performed in Vienna at that time. But to date nobody has shown the two composers actually met.

In September 1790 Mozart was in Frankfurt and heard a performance of a play called 'Lanassa' whose music at that performance consisted of the symphony KV184 (used as a sort of Overture) and some of the music from the earlier work 'Thomas King in Egypt'KV345. No problem, except that a commentator sitting in this same audience as Mozart himself credits this very same music to a certain 'Karl Martin' (whose play it was anyway) -

'the music by Karl (Martin) is artfully and finely wrought - and, more than this, I believe, the composer did not desire. It is only a pity it was not sung better.'

Who was 'Karl Martin' ? If he was only the writer of the play and Mozart was the music composer (some of which was being used in that performance) it's curious that Martin's name has been confused with Mozart. The only composer contemporary of Mozart and regarded as a composer of equal talent (and one whose lifespan is almost identical) is this same Joseph Martin Kraus, then living in Sweden, the very one who mysteriously had used the March from Mozart's 'Idomeneo' the year before.

Anyway, enough of this. 2006 is a 'Mozart' year - the celebration of 250 years since his birth in Salzburg. Great festivities are planned for the whole year.

Robert

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:

In Sweden in 1789 Joseph Martin Kraus wrote music for an official government function which uses an arrangement of the March from Mozart's 'Idomeneo' (written in 1781). Fine. But Mozart's opera was not actually published until 1792, fully 3 years later. How did Kraus manage to do this ?

The two men are assumed to have met in 1783 (when they were both lived near one another in Vienna) - at which time Mozart must have given a copy of the March to Kraus, which he later used in 1789. No manuscript of this March has ever been found in Kraus's papers (who died in 1792). It was not performed in Vienna at that time. But to date nobody has shown the two composers actually met.

In September 1790 Mozart was in Frankfurt and heard a performance of a play called 'Lanassa' whose music at that performance consisted of the symphony KV184 (used as a sort of Overture) and some of the music from the earlier work 'Thomas King in Egypt'KV345. No problem, except that a commentator sitting in this same audience as Mozart himself credits this very same music to a certain 'Karl Martin' (whose play it was anyway) -

'the music by Karl (Martin) is artfully and finely wrought - and, more than this, I believe, the composer did not desire. It is only a pity it was not sung better.'

Who was 'Karl Martin' ? If he was only the writer of the play and Mozart was the music composer (some of which was being used in that performance) it's curious that Martin's name has been confused with Mozart. The only composer contemporary of Mozart and regarded as a composer of equal talent (and one whose lifespan is almost identical) is this same Joseph Martin Kraus, then living in Sweden, the very one who mysteriously had used the March from Mozart's 'Idomeneo' the year before.

Anyway, enough of this. 2006 is a 'Mozart' year - the celebration of 250 years since his birth in Salzburg. Great festivities are planned for the whole year.

Robert

Dear Robert;

In 1782, Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-1792) was sent on a 4-year professional tour of Europe to learn the prevailing music styles. In Vienna, he not only lived near Mozart as you pointed out, but he met Gluck and Haydn. So, Kraus may have had occasions to hear "Idomeneo" during this tour. This may have influenced Kraus when he later wrote his "Riksdagsmarch."


Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Robert;

In 1782, Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-1792) was sent on a 4-year professional tour of Europe to learn the prevailing music styles. In Vienna, he not only lived near Mozart as you pointed out, but he met Gluck and Haydn. So, Kraus may have had occasions to hear "Idomeneo" during this tour. This may have influenced Kraus when he later wrote his "Riksdagsmarch."


Hofrat

Dear Robert;

What goes around, comes around! Though it seems like a Swedish composer was influenced by Mozart, the composer Verdi was influenzed by an event in Sweden. The assassination of the Swedish king Gustav III (Kraus' patron) in 1792 at a costume gala was the basis of Verdi's opera "The Masked Ball."

Hofrat

[robert newman]

Thanks Hofrat. I can't rule out the possibility that Kraus got this March as the result of him touring Europe (including Vienna) and that he may have learned it through Gluck and Haydn. But even the original score of the Kraus work describes that particular movement simply as a 'March' with no reference to Mozart from which (conventionally) is it was derived.

Yes, it's remarkable as you say that Verdi got his plot from real events in Sweden where Kraus was employed. And a further remarkable thing is that the King of Sweden died shortly before Kraus himself, which is also true of course of Joseph 2nd, Emperor of Austria, who died shortly before Mozart. Both Kraus and Mozart were virtually the same age. Both of them were members of the same Freemasonic lodge in Vienna (despite them not apparently meeting there) and both composers are today regarded as being amongst the greatest of their time. Haydn speaks of owning a symphony by Kraus which he called 'an absolutely remarkable work of genius' though we are not sure which symphony he was actually owner of. (Kraus seems to have submitted it to Haydn as an attempt to further his reputation though nothing, it seems, came of it).

In recent years all Kraus symphonies have been recorded by Naxos on 4 discs and these have been very well received. (There are too several specialist Kraus websites for this much neglected genius).

Regards

Robert

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Thanks Hofrat. I can't rule out the possibility that Kraus got this March as the result of him touring Europe (including Vienna) and that he may have learned it through Gluck and Haydn. But even the original score of the Kraus work describes that particular movement simply as a 'March' with no reference to Mozart from which (conventionally) is it was derived.

Yes, it's remarkable as you say that Verdi got his plot from real events in Sweden where Kraus was employed. And a further remarkable thing is that the King of Sweden died shortly before Kraus himself, which is also true of course of Joseph 2nd, Emperor of Austria, who died shortly before Mozart. Both Kraus and Mozart were virtually the same age. Both of them were members of the same Freemasonic lodge in Vienna (despite them not apparently meeting there) and both composers are today regarded as being amongst the greatest of their time. Haydn speaks of owning a symphony by Kraus which he called 'an absolutely remarkable work of genius' though we are not sure which symphony he was actually owner of. (Kraus seems to have submitted it to Haydn as an attempt to further his reputation though nothing, it seems, came of it).

In recent years all Kraus symphonies have been recorded by Naxos on 4 discs and these have been very well received. (There are too several specialist Kraus websites for this much neglected genius).

Regards

Robert

Dear Robert;

My handy thematic catalog of the musical works of Kraus says the following about the "Riksdagsmarsch:"

"This march, performed during the opening ceremonies of the Parliament in early March 1789, represents a comprehensive rearrangement of a march from the first act of Mozart's 1781 opera 'Idomeneo.' A comment on the first copy says that it is altered thematically and developed differently, being 20 bars longer than the original Mozart march. It is unknown where Kraus obtained ht march, but two possibilities suggest themselves. He either received it directly from Mozart who lived around the corner from Kraus on the Kohlmarkt in 1783 during the latter's visit. Or Gustav III's staff found the original score in Munich during an official state visit [very, very, unlikely]. In any case, it is unlikely that Kraus obtained it elsewhere than personal contact as the work was kept in Mozart's possession until after his death; it was first published in 1792."


Hofrat

[Droell]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Robert;

In 1782, Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-1792)....
Hofrat

Curious dates. Was he born a few days before or after Mozart?

Vincent Youmans, composer of the immortal Tahiti Trot, was born within a few days of George Gershwin, both in 1898, and though lived to 1946, was forced to retire (illness) in 1933.

[Droell]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Happy New Year to everyone !

I would like to ask opinions on Beethoven's handwriting - ...

3. Beethoven is famous for working many, many times on a compositon by making various drafts/versions (sometimes of even a single motif) over a long period of time. Mozart is commonly credited with being able to compose at extraordinary speed and with great precision ....

In Beethoven's case, it's not that simple. Ries records several instances where Beethoven wrote straight in front of an evening concert, ink still wet when first performed (well, you get the idea). In fact, Beethoven more than once composed for full orchestra on the day of the concert.

When he struggles, he struggles for a reason. The reason rarely has anything to do with simple music-making. The struggle is for what he's trying to express. It is not easy to find notes to describe abstractions such as ghosts, absence, revolutionary struggle, etc., but somehow Beethoven did.

The Kreutzer sonata came up recently. Of the ten violin-piano sonatas, I've long thought it the worst of the set. In the discussion of traveling virtuosi & musical piracy, I thought I might have found the reason: If the soloist tried to reconstruct it later, for his own profit, he probably wouldn't do too well.

What are you listening to now? Me, the final movement of the Triple Concerto, on the radio. With a piano part intended for a novice player. Composers write all manner of things, in all manner of styles, for all manner of occasions.

[robert newman]

Hi Hofrat,

You are quite right that these comments are written on the first copy of the March that Kraus used for his ceremonial music in Sweden. But unless I'm mistaken these same comments were written years after Kraus had died (1792) and therefore years after 'Idomeneo'was published. I am fairly sure this is right. How else could the writer in Sweden (who was definitely not Kraus) have known this March was 20 bars longer than Mozart's if, in fact, he had no way in 1789 to know their relative lengths ? The evidence seems to suggest (to me at least) that the writer of those comments had available the Mozart score of Idomeneo with which to make such a note (not simply a keyboard version of the March). For Kraus to not have credited Mozart in such a high profile piece is also strange. Kraus was no amateur. There is evidence too that Kraus was responsible for the first performance in Sweden of a symphony today said to be by Mozart.

To close, I find it remarkable that an orchestral March (which the great Kraus was able to write with almost unrivalled skill) should have been this particular March which today is credited to Mozart. For that begs the question of whether Kraus wrote the March for Idomeneo himself. To have done so seems just as unlikely since, as mentioned, the two do not seem to have met.

But life is full of puzzles and permutations and this is simply one more, I suppose.

Robert

[sjwenger]

> What are you listening to now? Me, the final movement of the Triple Concerto, on the radio. With a piano part intended for a novice player. Composers write all manner of things, in all manner of styles, for all > manner of occasions.

I've heard that this was written when Beethoven was in love. Could the piano part have been written for the woman he loved (at that time)?

[Peter]

Originally posted by sjwenger:


I've heard that this was written when Beethoven was in love. Could the piano part have been written for the woman he loved (at that time)?

It was always assumed that it was written for the Archduke Rudolph, but this is not certain as it was Schindler who questionably dated Beethoven's association with Rudolph from this time. As to his being in love at the time (1803/4), I don't know, but the gifted Baroness Dorothea Von Ertmann had recently become his pupil.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Hi Hofrat,

You are quite right that these comments are written on the first copy of the March that Kraus used for his ceremonial music in Sweden. But unless I'm mistaken these same comments were written years after Kraus had died (1792) and therefore years after 'Idomeneo'was published. I am fairly sure this is right. How else could the writer in Sweden (who was definitely not Kraus) have known this March was 20 bars longer than Mozart's if, in fact, he had no way in 1789 to know their relative lengths ? The evidence seems to suggest (to me at least) that the writer of those comments had available the Mozart score of Idomeneo with which to make such a note (not simply a keyboard version of the March). For Kraus to not have credited Mozart in such a high profile piece is also strange. Kraus was no amateur. There is evidence too that Kraus was responsible for the first performance in Sweden of a symphony today said to be by Mozart.

To close, I find it remarkable that an orchestral March (which the great Kraus was able to write with almost unrivalled skill) should have been this particular March which today is credited to Mozart. For that begs the question of whether Kraus wrote the March for Idomeneo himself. To have done so seems just as unlikely since, as mentioned, the two do not seem to have met.

But life is full of puzzles and permutations and this is simply one more, I suppose.

Robert

Dear Robert;

I think that it is safe to say that Kraus heard the march from "Idomeneo" sometime during his 4-year tour of Europe. Kraus may not have credited Mozart, but this was not a crime then. Copying thematic material was considered flattery in the 18th century. Beethoven did not credit Handel when he wrote the overture "Consecration of House" where he blatantly used a theme from Handel's "Feast of Alexander!"

Only in 1789 did Mozart's symphonies reach Sweden. I can not find evidence that Kraus conducted a Mozart opera. You may be confusing this with the 1812 premiere performance in Sweden of Mozart's "Magic Flute" that was conducted by Eggert.

Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Droell:
Curious dates. Was he born a few days before or after Mozart?

Vincent Youmans, composer of the immortal Tahiti Trot, was born within a few days of George Gershwin, both in 1898, and though lived to 1946, was forced to retire (illness) in 1933.

Dear Droell;

Kraus was born on 20 June 1756, a full half year after Mozart.

Hofrat

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

I entirely agree that Kraus was never involved in the production of a Mozart opera in Sweden. What I suggested was slightly different. He seems to be credited with performing in Sweden a symphony that is today assumed to be by Mozart. Which symphony I do not know. But I will provide you the source of such information if you like.

You mention that Beethoven quotes Handel in his Overture to 'The Consecration of the House' (a piece I really love). And that he does not mention Handel in his score. Yes, certainly. But Beethoven specifically wanted to write this whole overture in the style of Handel as is well known. He planned another (which was not fulfilled) in the style of Bach if I remember rightly. But in the case of Kraus this was no homage to Mozart, since (as we agree) Mozart's works were still unknown in Sweden, which was certainly not the case of course with Handel when Beethoven wrote 'The Consecration of the House'.

Anyway, thanks again and regards

Robert