Immortal Beloved

[Kalimac]

If you're seeking opinions of the film Immortal Beloved, there's links to 24 reviews of it http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110116/externalreviewshere.</A>

[Laurenticwave]

James Bernardinelli's review pretty much sums up my own opinion: "Ultimately, the film's biggest failing is its characterization of Beethoven. Not only is he shown to be a selfish, crabby, arrogant womanizer (which is probably accurate), but we're rarely given more than a surface look into his personality. Because we're forced to watch him from an emotional distance, it's difficult to generate much sympathy. By extension, the identity of Beethoven's "Immortal Beloved" is less a great mystery than a minor curiosity."

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
Ah, but it isn't discounted! Many leading Beethoven scholars still accept the Brentano theory put forward by Solomon.

And rightly so. Solomon puts on a very strong circumstantial case (there will likely never be anything more than that possible), while your argument is no more than a series of inferences based on your reading of his character. While you may be proven correct some day (I doubt it), you have to provide more than "he wouldn't have done that" if you are going to refute actual evidence, albeit circumstantial. If it is NOT Antonie Brentano, then the only alternative is that it is someone whom we have never heard of before, since process of elimination by actual "alibis" has ruled out everyone else.

Cheers,
Gurn

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
And rightly so. Solomon puts on a very strong circumstantial case (there will likely never be anything more than that possible), while your argument is no more than a series of inferences based on your reading of his character. While you may be proven correct some day (I doubt it), you have to provide more than "he wouldn't have done that" if you are going to refute actual evidence, albeit circumstantial. If it is NOT Antonie Brentano, then the only alternative is that it is someone whom we have never heard of before, since process of elimination by actual "alibis" has ruled out everyone else.

Cheers,
Gurn

It isn't my reading of his character, it is his own words, but you probably prefer to accept him as a liar and hypocrite.
“It is one of my foremost principles never to occupy any other relations than those of friendship with the wife of another man. I should never want to fill my heart with distrust towards those who may chance some day to share my fate with me, and thus destroy the loveliest and purest life for myself.”

There is much supposition in Solomon's argument, for example can it be conclusively proven that K was Karlsbad? Remember Beethoven originally had no intention of going to karlsbad, his plans were to remain in Teplitz until the middle of August.

He must also suppose that either Franz Brentano was a fool or he didn't care.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-05-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
And rightly so. Solomon puts on a very strong circumstantial case (there will likely never be anything more than that possible), :

We've discussed this at length long ago if you look back through the archives, but I'll say this again - there is too much concentration on times and places and who could be where and when, whereas if you read the situational circumstances Beethoven describes in the letter these seem to me most unlikely if the intended receipient was AB, some of which Peter has already identified above.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-05-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Hello, Rod --

I wrote of her in the present tense without thinking in my earlier post, and if that's what you're referring to, my humble apologies.

Teresa

The tense was not really my point, I was kind of joking there. My real point was that I cannot accept AB as the IB.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Skeksis]

Thanks for all the replies people, this is much aprecciated.

[Joy]

Solomon does indeed put in a strong case for the identity of the Immortal Beloved and if you buy into his other psychoanalysis theories concerning Beethoven this one could be 'right' for you. However if there's one thing we can be sure about concerning this topic is we'll never know for sure! Beethoven himself probably didn't want anyone to know for sure or else he wouldn't hace been so secret about it, 'A' 'K' and all that, he would have just come out with the names. Maybe it's better that way!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 12-05-2005).]

[Skeksis]

Does anyone have anything else to add?

[Skeksis]

bump

[Classy_The_Virgin]

Originally posted by Skeksis:
Does anyone have anything else to add?

They called him callis. And unfeeling. And hard of hearts. BUT--->He gave all he had through his music and withdrew from the wold when he received nothing in return--->great lines from the movie. You were right

It was a great film,I have learned so many things just about B. He is also a fasinating human being. You could wrte a book just on his personality!

[sjwenger]

Joy wrote:

> Solomon does indeed put in a strong case for the identity of the Immortal Beloved and if you buy into his other psychoanalysis theories concerning Beethoven this one could be 'right' for you. However if there's one thing we can be > sure about concerning this topic is we'll never know for sure! Beethoven himself probably didn't want anyone to know for sure or else he wouldn't hace been so secret about it, 'A' 'K' and all that, he would have just come out with the names. > Maybe it's better that way!

I'm not sure that's right. Remember, he never wrote his brother Johan's name, either : }

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susanwenger@yahoo.com

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[Joy]

Originally posted by Classy_The_Virgin:
You could wrte a book just on his personality!

And people have!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
Joy wrote:

> Solomon does indeed put in a strong case for the identity of the Immortal Beloved and if you buy into his other psychoanalysis theories concerning Beethoven this one could be 'right' for you. However if there's one thing we can be > sure about concerning this topic is we'll never know for sure! Beethoven himself probably didn't want anyone to know for sure or else he wouldn't hace been so secret about it, 'A' 'K' and all that, he would have just come out with the names. > Maybe it's better that way!

I'm not sure that's right. Remember, he never wrote his brother Johan's name, either : }

I've read in some accounts that he couldn't bring himself to write his brother's name because of his ill feelings towards his father who had the same name Johan. About the letter I meant he was being somewhat secret in writing just initials i.e. 'A' or maybe it was something as simple as just taking a shortcut in writing out names.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[waldstein]

Originally posted by Skeksis:
Hi there.

I'm writing a small paper (minimum length:500 words) for my Music Appreciation class about the historical inaccuracy of this movie. It's basically a fact vs. fiction sort of thing. Could you help me out by pointing me to some websites that talk about this (I've googled like crazy to no avail) or perhaps even give me some fact vs. fiction info yourselves? I'd really aprecciate it.

try this:http://www.employees.csbsju.edu/wibes/immortal.htm