Immortal Beloved

[Skeksis]

Hi there.

I'm writing a small paper (minimum length:500 words) for my Music Appreciation class about the historical inaccuracy of this movie. It's basically a fact vs. fiction sort of thing. Could you help me out by pointing me to some websites that talk about this (I've googled like crazy to no avail) or perhaps even give me some fact vs. fiction info yourselves? I'd really aprecciate it.

[Classy_The_Virgin]

Ive never seen any films about Beethoven and went to the library today to get the Immortal Beloved on DVD after doing my research. Watching it tonight. Have you seen it? (No spoilers,though, haven't seen this yet-->watching it later on tonight).

Good luck on your report. Most people here are very knowledgeable and know what their talking about. Youve come to the best place online for Beethoven!

[Skeksis]

It's a good movie, very entertaining. Gary Oldman's performance as Beethoven is spectacular.

And yeah, this place seems to be populated with very knowledgeable people; I hope some of them will help me out!

[ruudp]

I've seen this movie years ago and was at the time quite overwhelmed and intruiged, although others on this board think otherwise I liked gary Oldman's perfomance, he really made beethoven come to live for me, albeit a bit...as a caricature *don't know the right spelling of the word*The historical truths are, his lifespan, his deafness, his social quarrels, his nephews attempt to commit suicide and the bitter courtcases with johanna,his attitude towards the nobility.
Downright fiction is their rendition of the immortal beloved, the movie also connects the moonlightsonata quite strongly to the feelings he had for his pupil guicardi, although it is believed nowadays that the sonata was composed BEFORE a relation/feelings developed so the connection seems trifle at the least.

A part I especially liked though...even though it linked guicardi with the moonlightsonata strongly was the scene in which Beethoven played the pianoforte in guicardi's house, she was in the room but Beethoven was unaware, he oouldn't hear her because of his growing deafness and in this scene one can see the devastation which the realization of his impending deafness brought upon Beethoven...all in all I still like the movie.

[charly]

The Beethoven Center in California says that the most 3 likely candidates as being the Immmortal Beloved are Antonie Brentano, Bettine Brentano and Josephine Brunsvik. Beethoven was in love with Josphine around 1806, but now that almost everyone agrees Beethoven's letter was written in 1812, she is seldom seriously considered now. See the Winter 2002 issue of the Beethoven Journal published by the American Beethoven Society for the case for Bettine. In that article, you will find in the footnotes the sources for the Antonie theory.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Skeksis:
Hi there.

I'm writing a small paper (minimum length:500 words) for my Music Appreciation class about the historical inaccuracy of this movie. It's basically a fact vs. fiction sort of thing. Could you help me out by pointing me to some websites that talk about this (I've googled like crazy to no avail) or perhaps even give me some fact vs. fiction info yourselves? I'd really aprecciate it.

The whole premise of the film, that Beethoven was having an affair with his brother's wife Johanna is fiction. There has been much extensive research into this matter over many decades and although the issue as to the true Immortal beloved is not proven conclusively, no serious scholar these days would propose Johanna as a candidate.

At his first public recital, Beethoven was seven years-old and his father announced him as six, yet the movie conveys, via voiceover, that Ludwig was "12 and his father told the court he was nine".


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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Originally posted by Peter:

At his first public recital, Beethoven was seven years-old and his father announced him as six, yet the movie conveys, via voiceover, that Ludwig was "12 and his father told the court he was nine".

They probably couldn't find a six-year old actor who could play the piano.

Michael

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
The whole premise of the film, that Beethoven was having an affair with his brother's wife Johanna is fiction. There has been much extensive research into this matter over many decades and although the issue as to the true Immortal beloved is not proven conclusively, no serious scholar these days would propose Johanna as a candidate.

At his first public recital, Beethoven was seven years-old and his father announced him as six, yet the movie conveys, via voiceover, that Ludwig was "12 and his father told the court he was nine".

I wanted to walk out of the movie at the "Kreutzer Sonata" scene! The movie depicts George Bridgetower performing it with another pianist while Beethven is in the audience claiming he can not hear it because he was completely deaf! What a load of hog wash!


Hofrat

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Skeksis:
Hi there.

I'm writing a small paper (minimum length:500 words) for my Music Appreciation class about the historical inaccuracy of this movie. It's basically a fact vs. fiction sort of thing. Could you help me out by pointing me to some websites that talk about this (I've googled like crazy to no avail) or perhaps even give me some fact vs. fiction info yourselves? I'd really aprecciate it.

Hello -

I've Googled this topic as well by searching for Beethoven Immortal Beloved and had right much success. I think the argument and pretty much the accepted theory today is that Antonie Brentano is the Immortal Beloved. While Googling the topic I ran across some fascinating reading. You might want to try again.

Regards,
Teresa

[Rod]

Originally posted by Teresa:
... the accepted theory today is that Antonie Brentano is the Immortal Beloved.

True, whereas the actual reality of the situation is that she 'is' not.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-04-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Hello -

I've Googled this topic as well by searching for Beethoven Immortal Beloved and had right much success. I think the argument and pretty much the accepted theory today is that Antonie Brentano is the Immortal Beloved. While Googling the topic I ran across some fascinating reading. You might want to try again.

Regards,
Teresa

There is actually a lot of information on this site including a map showing the locations concerned (amongst others).Go to www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/immortal.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Rod:
True, whereas the actual reality of the situation is that she 'is' not.

Hello, Rod --

I wrote of her in the present tense without thinking in my earlier post, and if that's what you're referring to, my humble apologies.

Teresa

[Peter]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Hello, Rod --

I wrote of her in the present tense without thinking in my earlier post, and if that's what you're referring to, my humble apologies.

Teresa

I think I can safely answer for Rod (and many members here) that we do not accept that Antonie Brentano was the Immortal beloved. Here are some of the arguments put forward on this site against her being the IB.

The argument against her being the Immortal beloved is that Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife? Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous? In the first letter Beethoven also says "remain my faithful, one and only treasure, my all as I am yours" - how was this possible when she was already married?




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'Man know thyself'

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think I can safely answer for Rod (and many members here) that we do not accept that Antonie Brentano was the Immortal beloved. Here are some of the arguments put forward on this site against her being the IB.

The argument against her being the Immortal beloved is that Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife? Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous? In the first letter Beethoven also says "remain my faithful, one and only treasure, my all as I am yours" - how was this possible when she was already married?

Peter, thanks for the input. I agree with all you say. I didn't realize that this theory was pretty much discounted now.

Teresa

[Peter]

Originally posted by Teresa:

Peter, thanks for the input. I agree with all you say. I didn't realize that this theory was pretty much discounted now.

Teresa

Ah, but it isn't discounted! Many leading Beethoven scholars still accept the Brentano theory put forward by Solomon.

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'Man know thyself'