B's 10th Symphony! Opinions?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Kalimac:
It might help if we divided these posthumous works into categories:

1) Works which were mostly completed by the composer and can be played untouched, but with some sections reconstructed from sketches and/or newly composed by others (Mozart's Requiem, Puccini's Turandot)

2) Works customarily played in an unfinished state, but which can be completed by the above methods (Schubert's B-minor symphony, Bruckner's Ninth)

3) Works fully sketched out, but which need to be orchestrated or otherwise tinkered with by others to be playable (Mahler's Tenth, Tchaikovsky's E-flat, Schubert's E major)

4) Works consisting of jigsaw pieces that can be put together to form something of a whole, but which still need some reconstruction (Elgar's Third)

5) Works consisting of various sketches too scattered to form jigsaw pieces, put together on a purely hypothetical basis (Beethoven's Tenth)

Thank you kalimac for that sensible appraisal.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Laurenticwave:
If Cooper's "realisation" of Beethoven's sketches for the first movement of his 10th symphony are such "a huge disapointment", why have a number of highly respected orchestras - not to mention conductors - consented to associate themselves with it by recording it??

Well can you honestly say that you love the piece as much as the other 9 symphonies or that you prefer it to any of them? To me the work is nothing but an academic exercise, lacking that which distinguishes Beethoven from the mediocre - genius.

The musicologist Gustav Nottebohm who spent his life studying the Beethoven sketches had this to say: "But we must understand quite clearly that there is much they do not reveal, and that we learn least of all from them about what we call 'organic'. What is missing in them we gather only by speculation. In order to visualize the unity of realization and idea, it is necessary to consider the whole person together with his intellectual and spiritual activities. Herein one may also find the key to his technical execution. But who can really boast that he has full knowledge of, or is in possession of such keys?'

I think we need to ask another important question and that is why is there this sudden craze to complete abandoned works? Why are we not satisfied with the great music these composers have already given us?

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'Man know thyself'

[Laurenticwave]

I agree with you in the main, and certainly wouldn't class Cooper's version of the 10th's first movement as comparable with the others, but in fairness nor does he. As to the craze for completing what a composer left unfinished, surely this depends on whether said composer intentionally abandoned it - or died before he had a chance of completing it. Providing the piece in question is clearly labelled as the musical equivalent of GM, surely no harm can be done in offering up speculative completions.
As stated earlier, I would infinitely prefer to hear Beethoven's sketches as he left them - or even be able to read them - but since his sketches for the 10th are, to the best of my knowledge, unavailable to the general public, Cooper's version of the 10th is (in my humble view) better than nothing. One final point: someone described the 10th as a huge anti-climax after the 9th - does this refer to B's sketches/melodies/themes, or Cooper's contribution? I have a feeling that whatever symphony B might have written after the 9th would have been an anti-climax to many, just as the 4th is to the 3rd, Op 135 is to Op 131, or indeed the revised final movement of Op 131 is to the Grosse Fuge... though not to me! One of Beethoven's characteristics I so admire is his drive to be - as Bob Dylan puts it so beautifully - "in a constant state of becoming" ...

[Droell]

Originally posted by Laurenticwave:
....One final point: someone described the 10th as a huge anti-climax after the 9th - does this refer to B's sketches/melodies/themes, or Cooper's contribution?

My understanding of the "10th" is that it's really symphony 8 1/2: Sketched between 8 & 9. Or am I thinking of some other "10th"?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Laurenticwave:
I agree with you in the main, and certainly wouldn't class Cooper's version of the 10th's first movement as comparable with the others, but in fairness nor does he. As to the craze for completing what a composer left unfinished, surely this depends on whether said composer intentionally abandoned it - or died before he had a chance of completing it. Providing the piece in question is clearly labelled as the musical equivalent of GM, surely no harm can be done in offering up speculative completions.
As stated earlier, I would infinitely prefer to hear Beethoven's sketches as he left them - or even be able to read them - but since his sketches for the 10th are, to the best of my knowledge, unavailable to the general public, Cooper's version of the 10th is (in my humble view) better than nothing. One final point: someone described the 10th as a huge anti-climax after the 9th - does this refer to B's sketches/melodies/themes, or Cooper's contribution? I have a feeling that whatever symphony B might have written after the 9th would have been an anti-climax to many, just as the 4th is to the 3rd, Op 135 is to Op 131, or indeed the revised final movement of Op 131 is to the Grosse Fuge... though not to me! One of Beethoven's characteristics I so admire is his drive to be - as Bob Dylan puts it so beautifully - "in a constant state of becoming" ...

I understand your desire to hear the sketches and this site (though not about the 10th) may be of interest to you. http://www.discourses.co.uk/beethoven.php4

I've never thought of any of the works you mentioned being an anti-climax to their predecessor, but a good argument for not having realised the Beethoven 10th is precisely that it gives the wrong impression. I have no doubt that had Beethoven lived we would have had a symphony comparable in standard to the others, but we have to accept he didn't and there is no Beethoven 10th symphony.

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'Man know thyself'

[Laurenticwave]

Many thanks for that link - I've just ordered all 4 CDs. As to your 'good argument', I guess we must just agree to disagree. Thanks for a great site!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Laurenticwave:
Many thanks for that link - I've just ordered all 4 CDs. As to your 'good argument', I guess we must just agree to disagree. Thanks for a great site!

I haven't tried these cds myself so let me know what you think of them. I'm happy to agree to disagree on the Beethoven 10th! Just to prove though that I'm not completely stuck in the mud, I really did enjoy the Elgar/Walker piano concerto - I think he did a far better job with this than Cooper's effort, but to be fair Cooper was trying to emulate Beethoven, an impossible task!

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'Man know thyself'

[Kalimac]

To reply to Laurenticwave's question, what's misleading about the Cooper Tenth is the supposition that it's a reconstructed work at all. Even Payne's "Elgar Third" required a vast amount of original work by Payne, and it is carefully labeled as "The Sketches for Symphony No. 3, elaborated by Anthony Payne." Whereas Cooper was working with much more fragmentary material and much less detailed description of what Beethoven was to do with it, and yet it is described on the recording I have as "first movement of Symphony No. 10" without, on the cover, the "realized and completed by Barry Cooper" which appears on the inside. This is misleading. The Cooper Tenth is, in fact, an original composition by Cooper on an idea by and using some sketches of Beethoven's. I should add that I've just relistened to it, and orchestrally I think it's a remarkable pastiche. What it lacks is genius, and genius is what Opp. 60 and 135 have despite being less pretentious than their mighty predecessors.