B's 10th Symphony! Opinions?

[euphony131]

I have the CD of Beethoven's 10th Symphony, 1st movement. That right -- the 10th. Its a "realization" by a Beethoven scholar/conductor based on old and newly discovered sketches. I think we all know B had plans for other symphonies before he was snatched away to the big yonder. Oh! If only he could've hung on for just a few more years! Not fair!

Anyway, I'm curious to know what you all think about this CD. The recording's been available for some time now and even merits a great review in the Penguin Guide (the mother of all classical CD review books). I enjoy the novelty of it and the sound is intriguing but could it really be labeled "Beethovenian?"

It's impossible, of course, to know really what was in the Maestro's head and I wouldn't be surprised if the 10th was meant to be something more introspective or less "grand" than the 9th. Seems that B's pattern has been to sort of ease back a little after a groundbreaker, sort of unwind and smell the flowers before the next storm -- look at the sunny 4th in the wake of the explosive 3rd, the Pastoral after the devastating 5th or the classically retro-8th after the fanfare of the 7th.

Then again, at the time of his Third and Last Period, Beethoven had simply surpassed this realm. He'd become like an oracle with no limits to his ability. It's no surprise a lot of people say his last string quartets are akin to listening to the voice of God or the Higher Power. So I'm not so sure Beethoven would've used the "ease back before the next volley" approach this time around. What do the rest of you think?

For me personally, the supposed 10th Symphony has only the vaguest glimmers of HIS 10th symphony. Somehow it just doesn't sound quite "authentic" and I can't say why really. I'm no scholar certainly, I'm going solely on my ears and heart.

[Serge]

The problem, I think, with anyone attempting to 'build' the 10th is that you're working with nothing more than mere sketches. It's like trying to build a deck with nothing more than knowledge of how many board feet of plank you're using. Anything that comes out of such an attempt is not Beethoven's work. It's work of the outsider. You're not listening to Beethoven; you're listening to conjecture. So while I suppose such tries are worthwhile in their own right, I will never consider them Ludwig's music.

You've raised a good point about the style Ludwig may have been entering after his late period. His very last quartet is much sunnier in mood than his previous few, and the very last music he wrote, the new finale to replace the grosse fuge, was very cheery in nature. It has been supposed that B. was ready to enter a softer, sunnier style. Or maybe we're reading too deep into this.

[Peter]

I'm surprised the sketches were ever realised - knowing as we do now the tremendous alterations B made to his original ideas, how is it at all possible to produce anything even resembling the masterpiece the 10th undoubtably would have been ? - I think we would have seen a great deal more of the Handelian influence in this work, with fugue and counterpoint being more prominent - The theme B sketched for the 10th was very similar to that of the slow movement of Op.13 - another example of B returning to a theme from the distant past as with the 9th ?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:
I have the CD of Beethoven's 10th Symphony, 1st movement. That right -- the 10th. Its a "realization" by a Beethoven scholar/conductor based on old and newly discovered sketches. I think we all know B had plans for other symphonies before he was snatched away to the big yonder. Oh! If only he could've hung on for just a few more years! Not fair!

Anyway, I'm curious to know what you all think about this CD.

I believe the project was misguided from the start, I don't know what Barry Cooper (at least I think it was him) was thinking of when he did it. Don't even begin to think of this piece as one of Beethoven's.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

The late composer and Beethoven expert, Robert Simpson lived quite near to me for some years. I met him once and one of the questions I asked him was: "As a composer, did you ever feel like doing what Barry Cooper did, and try to recreate the Tenth Symphony?" and he replied that there was nothing in the sketches to work with. He added with a slight grin, that there was a lot of money to be made from that sort of thing.
Michael

[PDG]

Another gem of a story, Michael. Keep them coming!

[Laurenticwave]

Does anyone know if Beethoven's sketches for the 10th have been published? Or indeed recorded, other than Barry Cooper's personal recreation... which I have to say I like a lot, even though it's obviously not pure Beethoven - but then nor is Mozart's requiem, or Mahler's 10th... but still vastly better than nothing.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Laurenticwave:
Does anyone know if Beethoven's sketches for the 10th have been published? Or indeed recorded, other than Barry Cooper's personal recreation... which I have to say I like a lot, even though it's obviously not pure Beethoven - but then nor is Mozart's requiem, or Mahler's 10th... but still vastly better than nothing.

I, too, like it a lot so I guess that Laurenticwave and I make up a minority of 2. Cooper's score has been published (I am a happy owner of a copy) and has been recorded a few times (I have the CD's too).

To Laurenticwave's list I can add the following:
1. Puccini's "Turandot."
2. Elgar's 3rd symphony and his piano concerto.
3. Schubert's 7th and 10th symphonies.
4. Beethoven's 6th piano concerto (available soon on CD).


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Laurenticwave:
Does anyone know if Beethoven's sketches for the 10th have been published? Or indeed recorded, other than Barry Cooper's personal recreation... which I have to say I like a lot, even though it's obviously not pure Beethoven - but then nor is Mozart's requiem, or Mahler's 10th... but still vastly better than nothing.

I think there is a vast difference in completing a work in an advanced stage to realising an embryonic sketch, particularly in the case of a composer like Beethoven. With regards to the 6th piano concerto, I look forward to the cd because most of the exposition was actually written by Beethoven not Cooper as in the case of the 10th!

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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think there is a vast difference in completing a work in an advanced stage to realising an embryonic sketch, particularly in the case of a composer like Beethoven. With regards to the 6th piano concerto, I look forward to the cd because most of the exposition was actually written by Beethoven not Cooper as in the case of the 10th!

Inedita has recorded the 6th piano concerto and was suppose to release it in November 2005. A free downloadable MIDI file of this realization is available on the Unheard Beethoven website.

Hofrat

[Teresa]

To Laurenticwave's list I can add the following:
1. Puccini's "Turandot."
2. Elgar's 3rd symphony and his piano concerto.
3. Schubert's 7th and 10th symphonies.
4. Beethoven's 6th piano concerto (available soon on CD).


Hofrat [/B]

Hofrat,

Forgive me, but I'm lost. Is this a list of works by composers who didn't actually complete these works, or the authorship is questionable? I'm especially intrigued by the Schubert symphonies. Thank you --

Teresa

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Hofrat,

Forgive me, but I'm lost. Is this a list of works by composers who didn't actually complete these works, or the authorship is questionable? I'm especially intrigued by the Schubert symphonies. Thank you --

Teresa

Dear Teresa;

My little list comprised works not finished by their respective composers. It is, by no means, a complete listing of such compositions.

As for Schubert, he left about 6 unfinished symphonies, not just the famous one in B-minor. The 7th and 10th, in E and D respectively, have been realized by the renowned Schubert scholar Brian Newbould. They show us a much different Schubert than we know from his previous symphonic writing.

Hofrat

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Inedita has recorded the 6th piano concerto and was suppose to release it in November 2005. A free downloadable MIDI file of this realization is available on the Unheard Beethoven website.

Hofrat

So do you think it's worth checking out, even though it was unfinished by B and finished by someone else?

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Teresa:

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Inedita has recorded the 6th piano concerto and was suppose to release it in November 2005. A free downloadable MIDI file of this realization is available on the Unheard Beethoven website.

Hofrat

So do you think it's worth checking out, even though it was unfinished by B and finished by someone else?

Dear Teresa;

I have studied the score of the realized 6th concerto and I have listened to the MIDI file on the Unheard Beethoven site countless times. I will be ordering my copy from Inedita the moment it is released!


Hofrat

[Ateach Asc]

There never was anything beyond published OP 135 which finished with a very sudden and final goodbye and good luck! type of statement.

The purported piece of B music, supposedly derived from B sketches, was, to anyone familiar with the great works near the end of LVB's life, nowhere near the style, depth, expression, and ongoing musical development of the composer.

If Mr. C had simply left the matter as a tribute to B and his followers, rather than suggest the opening of an hitherto unpublished B. work in the making, perhaps the result would have drawn far less contempt, and definitely less publicity, for a work devoid of any artistic merit.



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Must it be? It must be!