kids and music

[jfienen25]

Why can't kids listen to beethoven? In today society we focus on popular music instead of the classics. What do you think about this topic and instead focusing on the stupid topic about hitler and beethoven?

When I was going growing up my dad and I went to concerts together. I remember listening to classical music in class and naming the composer before the teacher. I think that classical music can inspire the brain to use it for science, math and creative thinking

[Droell]

Originally posted by jfienen25:
Why can't kids listen to beethoven? In today society we focus on popular music instead of the classics. What do you think about this topic and instead focusing on the stupid topic about hitler and beethoven?

When I was going growing up my dad and I went to concerts together. I remember listening to classical music in class and naming the composer before the teacher. I think that classical music can inspire the brain to use it for science, math and creative thinking

Depends on the kid. When I was ten years old & living in western Kansas, we built a house & shortly after, my father got our first real stereo, used. Along with it came a record: Beethoven's 5th, performed by the Hamburg Festival Orchestra, conducted by Ameito Toscali. (Not quite Toscanini, but ten year olds are not fussy.) At the time I had three sisters & three brothers, with one of each still to come, but somehow that record, right from the first day, was not my parents', not the family's, not the property of any of my siblings, but mine & mine alone. It was the first, and for many years, the only classical recording in the house, which was not musical in any sense.

I had no previous knowledge of Beethoven or his music. I did not even know how to pronounce the name. This was the first of several mysterious experiences I have had with that man & his music.

Otherwise I think any proper education should include serious music, right from the start. I am entirely self-taught, but then, I was driven. Most kids are not. Children, I think, should be taught to have fine tastes & practical hands.

[Peter]

Science has shown the benefits of a musical education, something the ancient Greeks were fully aware of - Plato considered it of prime importance.

In today's world image is everything - people want a quick fix, so anything that requires a little more thought and concentration is rejected as 'uncool'.

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'Man know thyself'

[Classy_The_Virgin]

I think the kids are listening to B,they just dont know it yet. people dabble with melodys (like Alisha Keys did with Moonlit sonota on her 1st ablum) b/c thats what the kids relate to.

the music is already modern b/c its written so well and nobody has been able to write better melodys or music so they go with whats there but a 2005 spin is put to it so the kids relate.

[HaydnFan]

I think most kids are not that bright. It takes a certain intelligence to enjoy symphonic music. I think you will find the bright ones have more of a tendency to listen to it. Also, I think it helps it the music is "around" while they are young. If the parents do not listen to it, why should the kids?

It is sad because many people nowadays will not even consider listening to classical music and instead choose only sound. ie. music is sound but sound is not necessarily music (and in the case of rap, certainly cannot be classified as music but is merely sound)

[Droell]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
I think most kids are not that bright. It takes a certain intelligence to enjoy symphonic music.

Not true. It is the genius of music that you don't have to know anything. Good music, in and of itself, is structured to generate an overall healthy, life-invigorating environment.

There are certain flavors of pop music which, from time to time, are actually unhealthy to listen to. I was stuck in southern California back ten years ago & the people I was staying with knew no better than to tune to the local station, day in & day out. That pop music was like junk food: It started to make me physically ill. The only explanation I have is that people do not know how to listen, and so largely escape its worst effects.

Bruckner is awfully hard to get used to, but repeated exposure will not destroy your soul. Merely bore you to death!

[Steppenwolf]

Children normally do not listen to Beethoven or classical music generally because we live in a dumbed-down, culturally decadent society that feeds the brains of the young with mass-produced pop rubbish.

Classical music is not easy, it is very challenging. The allure of pop is that it is easy - it requires no effort to understand. Children cannot be expected to turn to it of their own accord, without encouragement, any more than they can be expected to start reading Shakespeare, instead of just reading comic books, unless such works of literature are taught to them. Unless we, as the cultured minority, are willing actively to seize back the education system and the media in order to promote real art, and real culture, then things will only get worse. It is futile to sit around in an internet chat room, idly hoping that perhaps through some miracle kids will suddenly, of their own accord, tune into classical music radio stations. It's not going to happen - unless we are willing actively to make the case for the benefits of high culture in the contemporary cesspool of cultural egalitarianism and aesthetic relativism.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited 12-01-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:
Not true. It is the genius of music that you don't have to know anything. Good music, in and of itself, is structured to generate an overall healthy, life-invigorating environment.

I think generally speaking Haydnfan is correct - the more intelligent a child the more likely they are to respond to classical music in the first place. Also the better educated they are, the more understanding they will have of the historical context as well. Yes its possible to listen to music without knowing anything about it, but surely it is a sign of intelligence to want to know more?

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Children normally do not listen to Beethoven or classical music generally because we live in a dumbed-down, culturally decadent society that feeds the brains of the young with mass-produced pop rubbish.

We do, but I wonder if it has ever truly been otherwise in the UK? There is something inherent in the British character that distrusts genius which is why we praise mediocrity, we're much more comfortable with it.

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'Man know thyself'

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think generally speaking Haydnfan is correct - the more intelligent a child the more likely they are to respond to classical music in the first place. Also the better educated they are, the more understanding they will have of the historical context as well. Yes its possible to listen to music without knowing anything about it, but surely it is a sign of intelligence to want to know more?

I'd say sensitive, rather than intelligent. Enjoyment of music is a feeling thing. Intelligence helps, helps a lot, but Bernstein had it right. Music without feeling is just a lot of fancy noise.

Strictly speaking, I can't agree that intelligence leads to enjoyment of classical music, or of any music or art form. I was once a member of Mensa & can report they were no more artistic or musical (or intelligent, for that matter) than anyone else I've ever known. Which was a great disappointment to Victor Serebriakoff, who founded the group.

In many ways, children are products of their environments, and sheer habit. Expose them to fine music early & often, they will grow up with a knowledge of fine music. Which, like the piano lessons that were drilled into their heads, they may or may not actually like, but they will always know.

Here in the States, I wish more cities & towns had historical context. When it's your countryman who composed the great symphony or wrote the intense opera, you naturally tend to point back to that person with pride. Elgar wrote Land of Hope & Glory, the King himself stands for the Halleujah chorus, Haydn wrote the Austrian national anthem, Tchaikovsky's famous Overture banished Napoleon from the gates of Moscow, etc. Over here, the best I have ever seen is, "Bach, the inventor of all music, was the father of Mozart who was the father of Beethoven, who was the father of Paul McCartney. Here's the young McCartney screaming at the top of his lungs." (Paul was really good at that, by the way.) And yes, for the longest time I myself thought Bach was the father of all music.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:

I'd say sensitive, rather than intelligent. Enjoyment of music is a feeling thing. Intelligence helps, helps a lot, but Bernstein had it right. Music without feeling is just a lot of fancy noise. Strictly speaking, I can't agree that intelligence leads to enjoyment of classical music, or of any music or art form.

Yes of course sensitivity is a major factor and you are quite right that music is more than just intellect. Learning a musical instrument though is a challenging thing to do and unless a child has a certain intellectual capacity, they're not going to get very far regardless of their circumstances. Intelligence is a factor in enjoyment, the more we know and understand, the more pleasure we get, because we are not just responding to pleasurable sounds but actually appreciating the greatness and subtleties of a composer such as Beethoven. Yes a person may be moved by a piece of music without understanding why - however if he understands the structure of a sonata for example the whole thing makes a lot more sense. If he understands the emotional effect say of a slur, a diminished chord, the reasons why the composer marked a certain passage soft or loud, whether the piece is minor/major, again enjoyment is enhanced.




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'Man know thyself'

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Peter:
We do, but I wonder if it has ever truly been otherwise in the UK? There is something inherent in the British character that distrusts genius which is why we praise mediocrity, we're much more comfortable with it.

I take your point about distrusting individual manifestations of genius (or perhaps it is simply distrusting intellectuals?), but certainly it WAS once otherwise in the UK. There was once a focus on real education, a focus on the classics, and an emphasis on the importance of high culture and its value. These things are no longer fashionable.

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:

Yes a person may be moved by a piece of music without understanding why - however if he understands the structure of a sonata for example the whole thing makes a lot more sense. If he understands the emotional effect say of a slur, a diminished chord, the reasons why the composer marked a certain passage soft or loud, whether the piece is minor/major, again enjoyment is enhanced.

Peter, this is true. Which brings up one of the enjoyable things about this forum. Why did Beethoven do the strange things with music that he did?

[Chaszz]

A friend of mine, an avid listener, has a seven year old son who not only listens with enjoyment but can identify Bach, Beethoven and Brahms by their sound and style. He is himself musically inclined in that he "plays" whatever toy instrument is around the house and makes percussion with anything available. I keep telling my friend to give him lessons but he is unwilling to force the boy, who is a little on the wild side, into this discipline. He wants him to have freedom to choose. The boy has a five octave keyboard. The last time I spoke to the father I told him to forget self-direction and put the boy with a teacher and haved him learn reading, theory and harmony.

Apart from sending CDs in the mail, there's not much more I can do.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 12-03-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:
Peter, this is true. Which brings up one of the enjoyable things about this forum. Why did Beethoven do the strange things with music that he did?

Well they certainly seemed strange to the ears of those times because many of these things hadn't been done before with such blatant boldness - take for example those incredible dissonances in the climax of the 1st movement of the Eroica blasted out fortissimo several times. It is obviously not the ordinary but the extraordinary that distinguish a genius from someone with talent. So I don't see them as strange, but inspired.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-03-2005).]