1st Eroica motif

[Brithooven]

I recently heard the first motif of the Eroica Symphony at the beginning of an overture of W.A. Mozart's called 'Bastien und Bastienne', K 50. I have tried, with no luck, to find out if Beethoven definitely knew of it before he composed his 3rd symphony. I will continue to try to find out, but in the meantime I would be interested to know if anyone is sure that he did.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Brithooven:
I recently heard the first motif of the Eroica Symphony at the beginning of an overture of W.A. Mozart's called 'Bastien und Bastienne', K 50. I have tried, with no luck, to find out if Beethoven definitely knew of it before he composed his 3rd symphony. I will continue to try to find out, but in the meantime I would be interested to know if anyone is sure that he did.

No one is sure one way or the other, since it would require proving a negative. However, the accepted stance is that it is a result of sharing a common musical language. The liklihood of Beethoven having heard "Bastien & Bastienne" is tiny, if not provably impossible.

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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Gurn Blanston]

While you're checking out that sort of thing, have a go at this one:

The "Ode to Joy" theme is prefigured note for note in the linking passages for the violin in the "Misericordias Domini" K.222 composed by Mozart in 1775. It is even in d minor! He wrote it in February 1775 for Maximilian the Elector of Munich, who expressed a desire to hear "some old fashioned church music". The liklihood of Beethoven ever hearing it is as slim as the opera overture. But hey, you never know. I can bet that B never forgot a nice theme once he DID hear it.

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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Brithooven:
I recently heard the first motif of the Eroica Symphony at the beginning of an overture of W.A. Mozart's called 'Bastien und Bastienne', K 50. I have tried, with no luck, to find out if Beethoven definitely knew of it before he composed his 3rd symphony. I will continue to try to find out, but in the meantime I would be interested to know if anyone is sure that he did.

The opera was written in 1768 and it was performed that year in the garden theater of Dr. Anton Mesmer, being the only time it was performed during Mozart's lifetime. It did not appear in print until 1879. So, unless Beethoven saw the score, I seriously doubt that Beethoven knew of the Mozart work.


Hofrat

[waldstein]

rty this: http://www.beethovenseroica.com/

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by waldstein:
rty this: http://www.beethovenseroica.com/

WOW!!!

Thanks Waldstein!!!




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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
While you're checking out that sort of thing, have a go at this one:

The "Ode to Joy" theme is prefigured note for note in the linking passages for the violin in the "Misericordias Domini" K.222 composed by Mozart in 1775. It is even in d minor! He wrote it in February 1775 for Maximilian the Elector of Munich, who expressed a desire to hear "some old fashioned church music". The liklihood of Beethoven ever hearing it is as slim as the opera overture. But hey, you never know. I can bet that B never forgot a nice theme once he DID hear it.

I recently attended a concert where the pianist was talking about this very subject also mentioned was Beethoven's Pathetique whereby part of the second movement was almost note for note for another Mozart tune. (Sorry can't come up with the Mozart tune and am in a hurry to get to work, maybe someone has heard of this and can supply the Mozart piece of music).



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by Brithooven:
I recently heard the first motif of the Eroica Symphony at the beginning of an overture...

Eroica has a motif? I thought it was all pretty random, lol. Sorry, not a big fan of that symphony.

My fav's are 2, 7, and 9...I read that someone on this forum did not like Beethoven's 2nd and I'm just wondering why? I love it!

[Peter]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Eroica has a motif? I thought it was all pretty random, lol. Sorry, not a big fan of that symphony.

My fav's are 2, 7, and 9...I read that someone on this forum did not like Beethoven's 2nd and I'm just wondering why? I love it!

No work by Beethoven is 'random' - we're dealing here with the greatest master of form and structure and the 3rd is no exception. The 3rd was a monumental achievement and even if you don't like the work, you have to appreciate that it opened the door for everything else Beethoven subsequently wrote.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Eroica has a motif? I thought it was all pretty random, lol. Sorry, not a big fan of that symphony.

My fav's are 2, 7, and 9...I read that someone on this forum did not like Beethoven's 2nd and I'm just wondering why? I love it!

Even the numbering of measures (including the repeated exposition) between exposition, development, and recapitulation plus coda are well balanced, something like 250/100/250 (I don't recall the numbers very well, but I do recall that it is very tightly balanced).

[HaydnFan]

Yes, of course I was not being serious, hence my (lol) after that sentence. I know that nothing Beethoven wrote was random. I just don't like the piece.

[The Master]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

The opera was written in 1768 and it was performed that year in the garden theater of Dr. Anton Mesmer, being the only time it was performed during Mozart's lifetime. It did not appear in print until 1879. So, unless Beethoven saw the score, I seriously doubt that Beethoven knew of the Mozart work.


Hofrat

If I can add,there is no evidence of it being played in public in Vienna during 1768, infact the first authenticated performance was on the 2nd October 1890 at Architekenhaus in Berlin. So I doubt very much if The Master heard this work.

[sjwenger]

Is there any chance that Mozart heard Beethoven playing with the theme, perhaps the time that Beethoven auditioned for Mozart and did some improvisation? Mozart famously could hear a piece of music once and replicate it years later. I don't suggest that he deliberately swiped a theme from the boy, only that as one note leads to another, a theme once learned takes on an air of inevitability.

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[Hofrat]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
Is there any chance that Mozart heard Beethoven playing with the theme, perhaps the time that Beethoven auditioned for Mozart and did some improvisation? Mozart famously could hear a piece of music once and replicate it years later. I don't suggest that he deliberately swiped a theme from the boy, only that as one note leads to another, a theme once learned takes on an air of inevitability.

IMPOSSIBLE!! Mozart wrote the opera in 1768. Beethoven was born in 1770.

Hofrat

[Brithooven]

Thanks everybody for the fascinating information. It was a matter of either conclusively showing that Beethoven definitely knew of these themes (with well documented evidence), or at least trying to establish a reasonable liklihood that he did or didn't know of their existance, through all of the circumstantial evidence available. Given the information, it doesn't seem likely Beethoven knew of them. Information available is lean, records from back then are not always very conclusive, and there was little contact between these two busy composers, so a mystery remains. Thanks again for the help with this poser. Also, thanks Peter and Chris for the opportunity to post this inquiry.

[This message has been edited by Brithooven (edited 12-14-2005).]