I recently heard the first motif of the Eroica Symphony at the beginning of an overture of W.A. Mozart's called 'Bastien und Bastienne', K 50. I have tried, with no luck, to find out if Beethoven definitely knew of it before he composed his 3rd symphony. I will continue to try to find out, but in the meantime I would be interested to know if anyone is sure that he did.
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Originally posted by Brithooven:
I recently heard the first motif of the Eroica Symphony at the beginning of an overture of W.A. Mozart's called 'Bastien und Bastienne', K 50. I have tried, with no luck, to find out if Beethoven definitely knew of it before he composed his 3rd symphony. I will continue to try to find out, but in the meantime I would be interested to know if anyone is sure that he did.
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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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While you're checking out that sort of thing, have a go at this one:
The "Ode to Joy" theme is prefigured note for note in the linking passages for the violin in the "Misericordias Domini" K.222 composed by Mozart in 1775. It is even in d minor! He wrote it in February 1775 for Maximilian the Elector of Munich, who expressed a desire to hear "some old fashioned church music". The liklihood of Beethoven ever hearing it is as slim as the opera overture. But hey, you never know. I can bet that B never forgot a nice theme once he DID hear it.
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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Originally posted by Brithooven:
I recently heard the first motif of the Eroica Symphony at the beginning of an overture of W.A. Mozart's called 'Bastien und Bastienne', K 50. I have tried, with no luck, to find out if Beethoven definitely knew of it before he composed his 3rd symphony. I will continue to try to find out, but in the meantime I would be interested to know if anyone is sure that he did.
The opera was written in 1768 and it was performed that year in the garden theater of Dr. Anton Mesmer, being the only time it was performed during Mozart's lifetime. It did not appear in print until 1879. So, unless Beethoven saw the score, I seriously doubt that Beethoven knew of the Mozart work.
Hofrat"Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"
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Originally posted by waldstein:
rty this: http://www.beethovenseroica.com/
WOW!!!
Thanks Waldstein!!!
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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous VoyageA Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage
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Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
While you're checking out that sort of thing, have a go at this one:
The "Ode to Joy" theme is prefigured note for note in the linking passages for the violin in the "Misericordias Domini" K.222 composed by Mozart in 1775. It is even in d minor! He wrote it in February 1775 for Maximilian the Elector of Munich, who expressed a desire to hear "some old fashioned church music". The liklihood of Beethoven ever hearing it is as slim as the opera overture. But hey, you never know. I can bet that B never forgot a nice theme once he DID hear it.
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'Truth and beauty joined''Truth and beauty joined'
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Originally posted by Brithooven:
I recently heard the first motif of the Eroica Symphony at the beginning of an overture...
My fav's are 2, 7, and 9...I read that someone on this forum did not like Beethoven's 2nd and I'm just wondering why? I love it!
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Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Eroica has a motif? I thought it was all pretty random, lol. Sorry, not a big fan of that symphony.
My fav's are 2, 7, and 9...I read that someone on this forum did not like Beethoven's 2nd and I'm just wondering why? I love it!
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Eroica has a motif? I thought it was all pretty random, lol. Sorry, not a big fan of that symphony.
My fav's are 2, 7, and 9...I read that someone on this forum did not like Beethoven's 2nd and I'm just wondering why? I love it!
Even the numbering of measures (including the repeated exposition) between exposition, development, and recapitulation plus coda are well balanced, something like 250/100/250 (I don't recall the numbers very well, but I do recall that it is very tightly balanced).
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Originally posted by Hofrat:
The opera was written in 1768 and it was performed that year in the garden theater of Dr. Anton Mesmer, being the only time it was performed during Mozart's lifetime. It did not appear in print until 1879. So, unless Beethoven saw the score, I seriously doubt that Beethoven knew of the Mozart work.
Hofrat
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Is there any chance that Mozart heard Beethoven playing with the theme, perhaps the time that Beethoven auditioned for Mozart and did some improvisation? Mozart famously could hear a piece of music once and replicate it years later. I don't suggest that he deliberately swiped a theme from the boy, only that as one note leads to another, a theme once learned takes on an air of inevitability.
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To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.
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Originally posted by sjwenger:
Is there any chance that Mozart heard Beethoven playing with the theme, perhaps the time that Beethoven auditioned for Mozart and did some improvisation? Mozart famously could hear a piece of music once and replicate it years later. I don't suggest that he deliberately swiped a theme from the boy, only that as one note leads to another, a theme once learned takes on an air of inevitability.
IMPOSSIBLE!! Mozart wrote the opera in 1768. Beethoven was born in 1770.
Hofrat
"Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"
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Thanks everybody for the fascinating information. It was a matter of either conclusively showing that Beethoven definitely knew of these themes (with well documented evidence), or at least trying to establish a reasonable liklihood that he did or didn't know of their existance, through all of the circumstantial evidence available. Given the information, it doesn't seem likely Beethoven knew of them. Information available is lean, records from back then are not always very conclusive, and there was little contact between these two busy composers, so a mystery remains. Thanks again for the help with this poser. Also, thanks Peter and Chris for the opportunity to post this inquiry.
[This message has been edited by Brithooven (edited 12-14-2005).]
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