Therese Von Brunsvik and Immortal beloved

[AlteGrafin]

1)Is it not strange that she should request a song to the beloved a few months before Beethoven writes a letter to the Immortal beloved

Not at all. It was not at all strange for him to have written a song about a beloved during this time. The fact that she liked it and asked him for a copy does not mean anything. Solomon was using this as one of his proofs and it's a poor one. If B. had written the song for her, she would not have had to ask him for it. He would have simply given it to her.

2) and also be in Karlsbad at the right time?

But at the time that Beethoven wrote his letter to the IB, he had no intention of being in Karlsbad himself. And in his letter, he said, "We shall surely see one another soon." Other letters he wrote at the time prove that at the time he wrote the IB letter, he was planning to be back in VIENNA, which is not where Antonie was, and where he knew she was not, since he had just met her and her husband in Prague and knew they were on their way to the spas. It was only later, after Staudenheim sent him to Karlsbad, that he changed his plans. And thus met up with Antonie and her husband. There is no irrefutable proof, either, that the "K" Beethoven references in his letter is absolutely Karlsbad.

3) I haven't stated that Antonie Brentano was the immortal beloved, only that she seems the most likely candidate, a view shared by Barry Cooper as well as Solomon.

But Barry does not do his OWN research, he only buys into Solomon's. Which, as I have said, is not based on fact, but on convoluted "proofs" that are mainly concocted by Solomon.

4) Yes you can easily dismiss the evidence, but you cannot provide a stronger case for anyone else

That is certainly not true, because, for instance, Goldschmidt and Tellenbach have provided a strong case for Josephine Brunswick and THEY did not rely on misquotes and other tricks.

[Peter]

Originally posted by AlteGrafin:
Goldschmidt and Tellenbach have provided a strong case for Josephine Brunswick and THEY did not rely on misquotes and other tricks.

After the death of her first husband in 1804, Beethoven became closer to Josephine - we know that this relationship was more on his side than hers as her letters make it clear she had no desire for a physical relationship 'if only you could love me less passionately'. They also still addressed each other with the formal 'Sie' and the relationship cooled off in 1807. In 1810 she remarried and hardly ever came to Vienna - are we to believe all this makes her the most likely candidate for the 1812 letters?

According to Fanny Giannatasio, Beethoven told her father that '5 years ago he had made the acquaintance of a person, a union with whom he would have considered the greatest happiness of his life'. This refers to a meeting around 1811, which most certainly rules out Josephine whom he had known since 1799. It is however a plausible date for Antonie Brentano who had arrived in Vienna in 1809

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-28-2002).]

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
[B]Hey!!!! I wondered where my monkey ran off to!! hehehe
Who can truly follow his/her heart?

Only the very courageous.

I tried to will myself to love a woman, married her and set out to follow the conventions of society. All the while a burning inside me, a calling if you will of primal desire; these passions, although real to me were stifled due to societial restrictions. As in Ludwigs case, his desire for someone, possibly married, possibly of a different status/class were the restrictions he had to live with.

Their is something to say for living within restrictions. It's quite challenging.

Life is so much more precious, more enlightened when hearts are open to express true feelings one to another. The human heart knows not law or boundaries.....this I discovered in the arms of another man.

Well, there it is!

Now where DID you find those monkeys!?! hehe

I dig those monkeys.

Suz

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tashibabes:
[B]Does anybody know the relationship between Beethoven and Therese Von Brunsvik? I know that Beethoven had a bit of a thing for Josephine....but there have been recent claims that it was the other sister. Anyone care to shed some light?
I know the thing with the immortal beloved is said to be Antoine B...but is this totally certain?

I haven't been around the forum for a while, but on a cold, blustery evening, with nothing else to do, it's sure fun to watch y'all beat this dead horse. My sincere thanks!

Suz

[Chris]

Originally posted by Suzie:
Now where DID you find those monkeys!?! hehe

I dig those monkeys.

Suz

I found them right next to this dancing elephant.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
After the death of her first husband in 1804, Beethoven became closer to Josephine - we know that this relationship was more on his side than hers as her letters make it clear she had no desire for a physical relationship 'if only you could love me less passionately'. They also still addressed each other with the formal 'Sie' and the relationship cooled off in 1807. In 1810 she remarried and hardly ever came to Vienna - are we to believe all this makes her the most likely candidate for the 1812 letters?

According to Fanny Giannatasio, Beethoven told her father that '5 years ago he had made the acquaintance of a person, a union with whom he would have considered the greatest happiness of his life'. This refers to a meeting around 1811, which most certainly rules out Josephine whom he had known since 1799. It is however a plausible date for Antonie Brentano who had arrived in Vienna in 1809

I wouldn't connect the Giannatasio story with the Immortal Beloved, she went on to say that, regarding this particuar love interest, 'It had never reached a confession, but he could not get it out of his mind'. Clearly in the case of the IB a confession of love had already been made! Also don't make too much of the date 1811, Beethoven met Amalie Sebald that year for instance.

Concerning my earlier comment about B's 'fatherhood' I think i got two theories confused - The idiot father should have been Stackelberg, husband of Josephine (v Brunsvik) whose daughter Minoa was born in April 1813(!) . But It wouldn't surprise me if some writer out there has suggested that Bettina v Brentano was B's daughter as well!

I read the IB letter over and over last night and the more one looks at it the less it seems to concern A Brentano. Nothing in it hints that the blockage to their relationship involves infidelity, indeed Beethoven makes much of assuring his own faithfullness with regard to this relationship. In the last sentence of the letter B states "O continue to love me - never misjudge the faithfull heart of thy beloved." Peter can you really believe Beethoven, if having such a clandestine affair with the wife of his very best friend, would have the sheer audacity to write about faithfullness in such a manner!!!!!! This is just not Beethoven's style, it's impossible as far as I can see.

In the scheme of things the importance of the IB has been overplayed. If B had mentioned her name the letter would have been of little consequence to us now, it would just be another of B's flames. It is clear from B's own writing that the only old flame he had deep thoughts about by the 1820's was Guicciardi!

For what its worth I personally believe the IB letter was posted and then returned to him. This would give him more reason to keep it as it's significance would be far greater. Do you think B would dare post such a damning letter to the wife of his best friend?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-01-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

For what its worth I personally believe the IB letter was posted and then returned to him. This would give him more reason to keep it as it's significance would be far greater. Do you think B would dare post such a damning letter to the wife of his best friend?

There is tremendous sense in what you say - I have never said AB was the Immortal beloved, only that out of all the possible contenders (and there are many) there is more evidence to suggest AB than any other - it is as you say of little consequence and stands in history next to Shakespeare's mysterious Mr.W.H of the Sonnets.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
There is tremendous sense in what you say - I have never said AB was the Immortal beloved, only that out of all the possible contenders (and there are many) there is more evidence to suggest AB than any other - it is as you say of little consequence and stands in history next to Shakespeare's mysterious Mr.W.H of the Sonnets.

The evidence is purely circumstantial, when one looks at the bigger picture Antonie is probably the least likely candidate! The issue is of little ultimate overall consequence, but in my remark above I meant that it was probably of little consequence even in the scheme of B's love affairs. The interest lies solely in the anonymity of the intended receiver. I'm sure a man such as B must have wrote many a passionate letter that are lost to us for ever. And how many other relationships must have been doomed from the start - for reasons other than the fact that the lady was married.

Regardless of what Cooper or Solomon say, I say the jury is still out on this matter. I would dismiss the case for wasting Court time!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-01-2002).]

[Zetraz]

Yep, perhaps it's like you say, perhaps Beethoven, wrote the letter to one of these ladies, but, I realiced that As a mather of fact, At the The year of 1812, july 6 was a sunday and not a monday, as it was a monday on 1802, I know the fact that others had revised the date before, but I had just made the count, and it does not match, if don't believe me, do it yourselves. Also by that year, Beethoven wrote his testament at Heiligenstadt, and both, the letters and the testament, were found together.
An other point for writeing the testament, it can be concidered the way he was feeling by that time, I know it sounds ridiculous, but it has a point.
The reason because he had the letters in his posetion, may be that by that time, the destinatary was eighter, not present at te location where they were heading, or that Beethoven, was writing them to a love that passed away (a death ladie perhaps), I mean, If you read between lines, you should notice, that he could certainly wrote those letters to a love he could never have in this heart.
For Ex he wrote this on one of his letters:
Yes, I am resolved to wander so long away from you until I can fly to your arms and say that I am really at home with you, and can send my soul enwrapped in you into the land of spirits - Yes, unhappily it must be so - You will be the more contained since you know my fidelity to you. No one else can ever possess my heart - never - never - Oh God, why must one be parted from one whom one so loves.
This and many other lines, round between his love and the pain he was feeling, but it can also be refered, as a lady that passed to better life, maybe he's truly love was not there, but he tought as many still do, that sending her a letter meant that she'd recieve it, and therefor, answered, some people do such things when someone they love past away.
Perhaps that's why he wrote the testament a few months latter, he tought he was going to die because of his illness (increasing deaf), not knowing what it truly was, or for the reason it took away many of his dreams, and then wrote the lines: " We shall surely see each other soon; moreover, today I cannot share with you the thoughts I have had during these last few days touching my own life - If our hearts were always close together"
And in his testament tou can read, that he knew that his hearing was going away, and he didn't know how much he'd last for he was ill and he knew it, besides it was only his hearing, he didn't knew what was going next, same on health that on personal life, that could end with his life
But of course its my opinion,and by the way, the 2 pictures that were found on his desk, not nesesarly are from the "Immortal beloved", Perhaps they were, perhaps not, as a mather of fact, it is not sure.
PD: Check the dates,make the count, and you will find that this letter had been written posibly on 1802, but not on 1812.
Crs Marcs Z
I am writing this, but I belive that we souldn't talk about this topic, for the only thing it mathers, is that the Immortal Beloved, did know she was so.
But to be honest, who doesn't like to talk about unresolved things

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Is so easy to hide,
from whom you never had seen

[charly]

Originally posted by AlteGrafin:
Therese was put forth as a candidate by Thayer mainly because he misdated the letters to the I.B. She is no longer considered a "contender." But then, neither should Solomon's "solution," Antonie Brentano. If one looks at the primary source material Solomon quotes to "prove" his theory, one finds gross mistranslations, quotes taken out of context, and other violations of proper historical reporting. Frau Brentano certainly does not fit the "profile" of the Beloved psychologically, and her other qualifications are dubious at best. If she was the I.B., then her husband, Franz, was no doubt the stupidest man in all of Vienna.
Never, never believe anything Solomon writes unless you double-check his sources. Believe me, it will be an eye-opener if you do.

Alte Grafin
I agree with your analysis and intend to publish a paper along those lines. Please contact me at "twalden@sympatico.ca" and perhaps we could share information.

[charly]

Originally posted by AlteGrafin:
If Beethoven had been wildly in love with Antonie Brentano and she with him, then why would he have spent 5 weeks with her AND her husband, child and maid in Karlsbad and Franzenbrunn? Why wouldn't Franz have suspected anything? And if he did suspect, he didn't mind? Because he remained Beethoven's friend, loaned him money, even had a portrait commissioned of Beethoven for his wife. Now, what sort of lunacy is that?
And why would Beethoven have tortured himself AND her by putting the both of them in the position of being close to each other (living next door to each other at the spa, as it turned out) and not being able to be "together?" Wouldn't he have posted the letter and left it at that? And what would have made Beethoven think he could send Antonie a love letter (10 sheets of paper, no less) while she was traveling with her husband, and be sure that Franz wouldn't see it? None of this makes the least bit of sense.

Yes, Solomon is an American. Unfortunately, European scholars laugh at Americans for taking his "Antonie" theory so seriously, but most don't care to bother refuting him (with some exceptions, like Marie-Elisabeth Tellenbach). If one checks Solomon's "proofs" one finds that they have generally been taken out of context or mistranslated or otherwise altered to fit his theory. He even plays fast and loose with Thayer!

Please contact me at "twalden@sympatico.ca" for possible publication of your views.

[EternaLisa]

No, it does not. "A" was taken out of context and belongs to a statement Beethoven made about his working conditions. If you look at the entire statement, and not just the line quoted by Solomon, it is plain that Beethoven was NOT referring to a beloved.

So was this a referential statement to A Schindler, then? Just curious (so sorry for floating this to the top of the pile, as this is an old discussion, I realize )

E

[Peter]

So was this a referential statement to A Schindler, then? Just curious (so sorry for floating this to the top of the pile, as this is an old discussion, I realize )

E

Yes it is hard to pick up a thread after so long! The A cannot refer to Schindler as Beethoven didn't know him in 1812.

[EternaLisa]

The A cannot refer to Schindler as Beethoven didn't know him in 1812.

Alright-thanks, Peter Guess that question comes from my presumption (outside of historical knowledge) that Schindler was a regular pain in the "A" that Beethoven had known for quite some time

E