Therese Von Brunsvik and Immortal beloved

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Chris:
I can't think of anything to get us off this ridiculous line of conversation. I therefore present to you a dancing monkey.



[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 02-22-2002).]

That's a wonderful monkey you have!

[AlteGrafin]

If Beethoven had been wildly in love with Antonie Brentano and she with him, then why would he have spent 5 weeks with her AND her husband, child and maid in Karlsbad and Franzenbrunn? Why wouldn't Franz have suspected anything? And if he did suspect, he didn't mind? Because he remained Beethoven's friend, loaned him money, even had a portrait commissioned of Beethoven for his wife. Now, what sort of lunacy is that?
And why would Beethoven have tortured himself AND her by putting the both of them in the position of being close to each other (living next door to each other at the spa, as it turned out) and not being able to be "together?" Wouldn't he have posted the letter and left it at that? And what would have made Beethoven think he could send Antonie a love letter (10 sheets of paper, no less) while she was traveling with her husband, and be sure that Franz wouldn't see it? None of this makes the least bit of sense.

Yes, Solomon is an American. Unfortunately, European scholars laugh at Americans for taking his "Antonie" theory so seriously, but most don't care to bother refuting him (with some exceptions, like Marie-Elisabeth Tellenbach). If one checks Solomon's "proofs" one finds that they have generally been taken out of context or mistranslated or otherwise altered to fit his theory. He even plays fast and loose with Thayer!

[Peter]

Originally posted by AlteGrafin:
If Beethoven had been wildly in love with Antonie Brentano and she with him, then why would he have spent 5 weeks with her AND her husband, child and maid in Karlsbad and Franzenbrunn? Why wouldn't Franz have suspected anything? And if he did suspect, he didn't mind? Because he remained Beethoven's friend, loaned him money, even had a portrait commissioned of Beethoven for his wife. Now, what sort of lunacy is that?

Well that's what happened with Wagner and Frau Wesendonk!

I don't know the reasons the letters were written anymore than anyone else, but you can't dismiss so lightly several facts -
1)'An die Geliebte' (To the Beloved) WoO 140, was composed by Beethoven in December 1811; in the corner of the manuscript, in Antonie's writing are the words "Requested by me from the author on March 2, 1812"
2)After Beethoven's death, two portraits were discovered in his desk - One is of the Countess Giuletta Guicciardi and the other was previously thought to be Countess Erdody but is now confirmed to be Antonie Brentano
3)Beethoven's Tagebuch of 1812 refers to a woman called "A" and "T" in passionate terms.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well that's what happened with Wagner and Frau Wesendonk!

I don't know the reasons the letters were written anymore than anyone else, but you can't dismiss so lightly several facts -
1)'An die Geliebte' (To the Beloved) WoO 140, was composed by Beethoven in December 1811; in the corner of the manuscript, in Antonie's writing are the words "Requested by me from the author on March 2, 1812"
2)After Beethoven's death, two portraits were discovered in his desk - One is of the Countess Giuletta Guicciardi and the other was previously thought to be Countess Erdody but is now confirmed to be Antonie Brentano
3)Beethoven's Tagebuch of 1812 refers to a woman called "A" and "T" in passionate terms.

The incontrovertible conclusion, if Solomon is correct, is not only that Franz was an idiot (doubly so if one accepts the other theory that Beethoven may have been the father of one of 'his' children), but also that Beethoven is the world's biggest scoundrel and hypocrite considering his personal moral stance and severe critisism of others regarding such matters of infidelity.

I'm not convinced!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-25-2002).]

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm not convinced!

[/B]

I am not convinced at all too... And where did you found, dear Peter, that the portrait is now sure to be of Antonie BRENTANO ? Honnestly I really think it is Anna-Maria ERDÖDY...



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Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
I am not convinced at all too... And where did you found, dear Peter, that the portrait is now sure to be of Antonie BRENTANO ? Honnestly I really think it is Anna-Maria ERDÖDY...

No one can be convinced because there is no definite proof, but out of all the likely candidates I do think A.B is the most plausible - as to the portrait, I can't recall where I got that information from. Are you sure it is Erdody and not Brentano?

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
The incontrovertible conclusion, if Solomon is correct, is not only that Franz was an idiot (doubly so if one accepts the other theory that Beethoven may have been the father of one of 'his' children), but also that Beethoven is the world's biggest scoundrel and hypocrite considering his personal moral stance and severe critisism of others regarding such matters of infidelity.

I'm not convinced!

Well the letters imply that there was an obstacle to their relationship, and that obstacle can only be that the lady in question was married - lines such as 'waiting to know whether fate will hear our prayer - to face life I must live altogether with you or never see you' and 'Be calm for only by calmly considering our lives can we achieve our purpose to live together'. I don't think Beethoven would be the first man in history to fall in love with a married woman, but I don't think it makes him the scoundrel that you suggest this implies.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Of course, falling in love with another man's wife has been going on for ages and even longer than that. I don't think it makes anyone a scoundrel either. No matter how much morals you have love can make you do 'crazy' things. As for the portrait, I have never read where it might be Brentano and not Erdody either, but there's been so much speculation on this matter that nothing would surprise me.

[Chris]

I think there is quite a difference in being attracted to another man's wife and actually having a relationship with her.

Also, I think there is quite a difference between love and infatuation. You really cannot control being infatuated with someone, but love is an act of will.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Joy:
Of course, falling in love with another man's wife has been going on for ages and even longer than that. I don't think it makes anyone a scoundrel either. No matter how much morals you have love can make you do 'crazy' things. As for the portrait, I have never read where it might be Brentano and not Erdody either, but there's been so much speculation on this matter that nothing would surprise me.

Of course, Brahm's peculiar relationship with Schumann's wife comes to my mind at this point.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I think there is quite a difference in being attracted to another man's wife and actually having a relationship with her.

Also, I think there is quite a difference between love and infatuation. You really cannot control being infatuated with someone, but love is an act of will.

If the 'relationship' was anything worthy of this word, I suggest Beethoven had none of it. Alternatively if he merely fancied his best mate's wife, well that's something different. However what is implied by Solomon's theory is something much more serious and long standing, and right under the nose of her husband! I just don't think this was Beethoven's style. If it was infatuation I suggest B merely made a nuisance of himself and nothing more, most of it was in his head. But if it was something serious and..er..consumated, I suggest we must look elsewhere for this lady.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-26-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Of course, Brahm's peculiar relationship with Schumann's wife comes to my mind at this point.

Brahms and Wagner were simple men compared to Beethoven.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Also, I think there is quite a difference between love and infatuation. You really cannot control being infatuated with someone, but love is an act of will.

I don't think you can control being in love with someone either - it is lust that you can control and of course people usually confuse the two. You can't will yourself to love someone. In Beethoven's case, I have no doubt that he was in love with this woman and the whole tone of the letter suggests that he was being completely honourable about it - am I alone in thinking that the letters suggest there is an obstacle to their relationship and if not does anyone have any theories as to what that obstacle could possibly be other than the fact the lady was married?

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-26-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
But if it was something serious and..er..consumated, I suggest we must look elsewhere for this lady.

I suggest that Beethoven being in love with Antonie Brentano does not necessarily imply consumation. I would also question why we would have to look elsewhere if the relationship with this lady had been consumated - would it have been any more moral in Beethoven's eyes, to have had a sexual relationship with an unmarried as opposed to a married woman out of wedlock?

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-26-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I suggest that Beethoven being in love with Antonie Brentano does not necessarily imply consumation. I would also question why we would have to look elsewhere if the relationship with this lady had been consumated - would it have been any more moral in Beethoven's eyes, to have had a sexual relationship with an unmarried as opposed to a married woman out of wedlock?

Sex out of wedlock (presuming both are single) is a far lesser 'crime' than sex with a married woman, married to a good friend at that! But the consumation element has been taken much further by others - recall the discussion concerning B's (many) alledged children!!! I believe he fathered none. I doubt he would have 'consumated' with any married woman, certainly not after his youth. Remember by 1812 B was no-longer a hormone infested teenager!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-26-2002).]