The Hitler question

[SturmundDrang]

Hi,

I realize that the thread about Beethoven and Hitler was closed for good reason, but I thought I would offer a clarification which seemed important to make. As somebody mentioned, Hitler appropriated quite a bit of German music for use in highly charged Nazi-political contexts, and bent the music of both Beethoven and Wagner (as well as others) to conform to his ideology. The Ninth Symphony, with its message of brotherhood, in particular became a kind of anthem for Nazism, and it was performed twice as far as I know, once in 1938 under Hermann Abendroth in the context of a Dusseldorf Nazi music festival, and then again in 1942 under Wilhelm Furtwangler as a part of Hitler's birthday celebrations. But obviously this kind of thing cannot be thought to reflect badly on Beethoven! And keep in mind that the Ninth was perhaps most famously performed at the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989 (under Bernstein). He substituted the word "Freheit" (Freedom) for "Freude" (Joy) in that performance. See Nicholas Cook's book on the Ninth, and also Esteban Buch's political history of the Ninth.

[Kalimac]

I must agree. The history of Beethoven's reputation is relevant to a Beethoven website, and that includes the history of his reputation under the Nazis. The Nazis claimed, however falsely, to be the heirs of the great German culture, and tried to enlist the reputations of Beethoven, Wagner, and Bruckner in that cause, with varying levels of success.

That Beethoven was known to speak against tyranny and wrote a great choral setting of a poem on Freiheit suggests that his work was peculiarly ill-suited for Nazi purposes. But even Wagner, a known anti-Semite, was not a Nazi, and few now accuse him of being one.

[jfienen25]

why are we talking about this issue? I think that peter was right about dropping this question. I think that we should not bring this topic up again. It might offened some people. I think that this discussion should only be used to talk about things that are positive about b and other composer. I know that some people might agree or disagree with me. I really don't care what they think because I am going what I think.

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jfienen25@yahoo.com if you are interested in talking more about B

[Droell]

Originally posted by jfienen25:
why are we talking about this issue? I think that peter was right about dropping this question. I think that we should not bring this topic up again. It might offened some people. I think that this discussion should only be used to talk about things that are positive about b and other composer. I know that some people might agree or disagree with me. I really don't care what they think because I am going what I think.

I agree!

If we're going to have "Beethoven plus ______" (fill in), then why not:

The sweet, sweet memory of Beethoven on the car stereo on prom night, long ago, when Sally & I stole our first kisses...

Beethoven & romance,
Beethoven & chocolate sundaes,
Beethoven & pounding nails into a block of wood,
Beethoven & dog training,
Beethoven & and an afternoon of Pinochle with the relatives,
Beethoven & LIFE !
why not?

What's your favorite? Real or imagined? Beethoven & ______ ?

[waldstein]

Originally posted by Droell:

I agree!

If we're going to have "Beethoven plus ______" (fill in), then why not:

The sweet, sweet memory of Beethoven on the car stereo on prom night, long ago, when Sally & I stole our first kisses...

Beethoven & romance,
Beethoven & chocolate sundaes,
Beethoven & pounding nails into a block of wood,
Beethoven & dog training,
Beethoven & and an afternoon of Pinochle with the relatives,
Beethoven & LIFE !
why not?

What's your favorite? Real or imagined? Beethoven & ______ ?

what about Beethoven and Che Guevara?

[Droell]

Originally posted by waldstein:
what about Beethoven and Che Guevara?

Okay. Beethoven, Che Guevara & a spicy cup of chocolate.

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by jfienen25:
I think that we should not bring this topic up again. It might offened some people.

Oh, no, we wouldn't want to do that. We wouldn't want to learn or anything by having an educated discussion. That would be horrible.

As I have pointed out before, as much as you say this topic is not relevent, I think the arguments made about it overwhelmingly prove that it IS relevent.

Now, your suggestions about B. and chocolate sundaes is just silly.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by jfienen25:
why are we talking about this issue? I think that peter was right about dropping this question. I think that we should not bring this topic up again. It might offened some people.

The case for anti-Nazism cannot be advanced, but only hindered, by making Nazism a taboo subject, which we are not allowed to mention. Ideologies have more force and allure if left challenged. The idea of offending people by simply mentioning the subject is sentimental and absurd.

The extent to which great art can be appropriated for morally evil purposes is, I would have thought, a highly interesting and important topic. If we understand it, we are better able to prevent it from happening again.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
The case for anti-Nazism cannot be advanced, but only hindered, by making Nazism a taboo subject, which we are not allowed to mention. Ideologies have more force and allure if left challenged. The idea of offending people by simply mentioning the subject is sentimental and absurd.

The extent to which great art can be appropriated for morally evil purposes is, I would have thought, a highly interesting and important topic. If we understand it, we are better able to prevent it from happening again.

Yes but not on a Beethoven forum - of far more relevance here is Napoleon but people seem fixated with Hitler (why not Stalin, Mao or any of the other 20th century butchers I wonder?)!

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'Man know thyself'

[Droell]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
The case for anti-Nazism cannot be advanced, but only hindered, by making Nazism a taboo subject, which we are not allowed to mention. Ideologies have more force and allure if left challenged. The idea of offending people by simply mentioning the subject is sentimental and absurd.

You want to stare into the crap that man was into? You got a strong stomach? Stories of H presiding over ritualistic human sacrifices as a young man? What the SS - a secret priesthood based on torture & death - was really up to? What was hiding behind Blood, Bread & Land? The real story why he slaughtered Ernst Roehm? What he expected to have achieved at the end of his 1000 years?

Sure, there's a place for that, but it ain't here & it sure isn't with misguided hero worshippers.

So what does Beethoven have to do with Mr. Hitler? Only that they both spoke German.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Droell:
You want to stare into the crap that man was into? You got a strong stomach? Stories of H presiding over ritualistic human sacrifices as a young man? What the SS - a secret priesthood based on torture & death - was really up to? What was hiding behind Blood, Bread & Land? The real story why he slaughtered Ernst Roehm? What he expected to have achieved at the end of his 1000 years?

Sure, there's a place for that, but it ain't here & it sure isn't with misguided hero worshippers.

So what does Beethoven have to do with Mr. Hitler? Only that they both spoke German.

Hitler is a major figure in German history, in 20th century history, in world history. Perhaps if we were speaking of the use of Beethoven's music by some lone, insignificant sadist then I would take your point. But you cannot relegate the leader of German National Socialism to the status of insignificance just because you find his views distasteful. In fact, it is those who were most adversely affected by his regime (eg. survivors of Auschwitz) who insist that we must never forget.

I don't think we should obsess about the subject in the Beethoven context, as within the topic of Beethoven it is relatively minor. But, as I said before, the topic concerning the use of great art for politically nefarious ends is of SOME relevance to anybody interested in the significance and value of art.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
But, as I said before, the topic concerning the use of great art for politically nefarious ends is of SOME relevance to anybody interested in the significance and value of art.

It is, but it is a whole new debate not entirely relevant to this forum - what new ideas can be expressed here concerning the Nazis and music? Their hatred of Mendelssohn and Mahler is no more surprising than their venoration of Beethoven and Wagner, conveniently of course ignoring the possibilty that Wagner's father himself may have been Jewish. The use of music in the death camps is again nothing new, but only teaches us that evil can pervert anything, again nothing new. Of course the horrors should not be forgotten, but I'm not convinced a Beethoven forum is the right place to remind ourselves!

Perhaps of more relevance is putting the debate in context of the artists' lifetime -I don't think Beethoven's art was in anyway affected by the political restraints of his time, in the way Shostakovich was under Stalin. This is surprising considering that Austria was a police state and several of Schubert's student friends found themselves in trouble with the authorities. It is also surprising how Mozart got away with The marriage of Figaro as Beaumarchais's play was banned by Joseph II.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
It is, but it is a whole new debate not entirely relevant to this forum - what new ideas can be expressed here concerning the Nazis and music? Their hatred of Mendelssohn and Mahler is no more surprising than their venoration of Beethoven and Wagner, conveniently of course ignoring the possibilty that Wagner's father himself may have been Jewish. The use of music in the death camps is again nothing new, but only teaches us that evil can pervert anything, again nothing new. Of course the horrors should not be forgotten, but I'm not convinced a Beethoven forum is the right place to remind ourselves!

Perhaps of more relevance is putting the debate in context of the artists' lifetime -I don't think Beethoven's art was in anyway affected by the political restraints of his time, in the way Shostakovich was under Stalin. This is surprising considering that Austria was a police state and several of Schubert's student friends found themselves in trouble with the authorities. It is also surprising how Mozart got away with The marriage of Figaro as Beaumarchais's play was banned by Joseph II.

Austria was a police state but perhaps could not be described as totalitarian, an appellation which belongs more or less to the 20th century.

An interesting sidelight on this Nazi issue is that I purchased a video copy of Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will, the famous Nazi propaganda film depicting a three-day Nuremburg Rally, because I wanted to actually see and hear how the composers were co-opted by the Nazis. Though there was much music in the film, it seemed all written by contemporary composers of the Nazi era, because I could not identify the works, style or any familiar passages of any of the great German composers, including Wagner.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 12-04-2005).]

[Kalimac]

According to the soundtrack listing on IMDB, the only canonical composer in "Triumph of the Will" is Wagner; the rest of the music is Nazi marching songs like the Horst Wessell Song.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Kalimac:
According to the soundtrack listing on IMDB, the only canonical composer in "Triumph of the Will" is Wagner; the rest of the music is Nazi marching songs like the Horst Wessell Song.

I did not pick up the Wagner...I thought I knew most if not all of Wagner. This is not too difficult with him (if one likes the music, as I do) since his body of musical work, though very imposing, is not that extensive; he spent too much time writing scores of pamphlets and chasing women instead of composing. His body of non-musical, prose writings occupies a five foot shelf.

The video, though you can see the filmmaker's famous mastery of her medium, becomes boring rather quickly. There are only so many marching columns of men, closeups of the solemn Feurher and equally solemn officers watching this marching, and smiling old women and young girls, that can be viewed before the eyes glaze over. Along with the music, that's about all there is, plus Hitler's climactic speech where he predictably finishes up by nearly foaming at the mouth.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 12-04-2005).]