Beethoven's taste in art

[SturmundDrang]

Maybe someone can help me with this? I've been trying to get a general sense of Beethoven's taste in the (visual) art and architecture of his day but I'm struggling to find any information at all. The major biographies, although they all discuss a number of the portraits of Beethoven, do not address his own taste in contemporary art, at least as far as I can tell. (I'm not talking about music or literature here, but strictly the visual arts). As far as an inventory goes, it appears that Beethoven did not own any paintings or drawings, with the exception of the portrait of his grandfather which he cherished. But this seems unlikely, and surely the families he lived with at various times (not to mention his friends in high places) owned artworks with which he became familiar. Whether or not he owned artworks of this kind, it is inconceivable that he would not have been aware of the cross-currents of thought in the visual arts going on during his lifetime. Can anyone help with this matter? Beethoven's own comments about painters, sculptors, or architects would be extraordinarily helpful OR if anyone has any idea what museums he might have visited in either Bonn or Vienna I'd be extremely grateful to know.

[Droell]

Originally posted by SturmundDrang:
Maybe someone can help me with this? I've been trying to get a general sense of Beethoven's taste in the (visual) art and architecture of his day but I'm struggling to find any information at all. The major biographies, although they all discuss a number of the portraits of Beethoven, do not address his own taste in contemporary art, at least as far as I can tell. (I'm not talking about music or literature here, but strictly the visual arts). As far as an inventory goes, it appears that Beethoven did not own any paintings or drawings, with the exception of the portrait of his grandfather which he cherished. But this seems unlikely, and surely the families he lived with at various times (not to mention his friends in high places) owned artworks with which he became familiar. Whether or not he owned artworks of this kind, it is inconceivable that he would not have been aware of the cross-currents of thought in the visual arts going on during his lifetime. Can anyone help with this matter? Beethoven's own comments about painters, sculptors, or architects would be extraordinarily helpful OR if anyone has any idea what museums he might have visited in either Bonn or Vienna I'd be extremely grateful to know.

I'm not an expert, but my guess is that until the monarchies & courts crumbled during the 19th century, there weren't a lot of museums, public or private.

Art was the province of those who could make it, or pay for it. With the exception of woodblocks, engravings & other printing methods, there was not a lot of art outside of churches & palaces.

By the mid-17th century, trade had made the Dutch rich. These newly rich merchants filled their houses with expensive art & objets d'art, giving rise to many famous painters, Rembrandt & Vermeer among them. This in turn led to an artistically cultured populace. I would guess this did not happen in Vienna until sometime in the 19th century.

Napoleon III opened up Paris. Broad avenues, impressive public buildings, lots of public art, nicely displayed. A lot of it got wrecked during the Commune, but as it was mostly rebuilt, Paris still bears his fingerprints. Don't know if the same was true of Vienna. 35 years ago Time/Life put out a big picture book for the 200th birthday. In it were lots of contemporary pictures of Vienna & surroundings. Made the place look quite nice, but, then again, these pictures never showed muddy days or the results of a week of horse-droppings.

I can only speak for myself. My ears can register wonderfully subtle differences in sound, but visually, my tastes are simple. And I was once a fairly good artist/photographer. You might focus your question more tightly: What sort of doodles can be attributed to B's pen?

Beethoven seems to have never sought-out the best of contemporary artists to make his portrait. His scores were nicely engraved, but rarely feature art. And he is on record mocking artists who cut holes in their paintings to let in the sun, which is about as crude as art can get. All of which leaves the impression that Beethoven was visually unschooled. Which if true would not be surprising. Music, at the level of which Beethoven made of it, is extremely intense & all-encompassing.

[Chaszz]

As a painter and sculptor myself, I am very interested in this subject. While Droell is correct that most great paintings would have been in private royal and aristocratic collections, architecture, public sculpture, and church interiors were available for viewing by everyone. We know the great composers were interested in more of the arts than just music in that literature was very important to all of them, Beethoven included. They were highly sensitive to poetry and set song texts even when they didn't write operas (e.g., Brahms).

Alas, the only record I have seen of a great composer showing some enthusiasm for visual art is a quote by Wagner expressing enthusiasm for a Holbein he had seen. The rest of them, including Beethoven, seem to have been more or less indifferent to art. If preserved quotes are any guide.

This may have something to do with the fact that Germany is not one of the leading countries in the visual arts in general. It produced only three or four first-rate great painters in Renaissance and post-Renaissance European times: Durer, Holbein, Grunewald and possibly one can admit Cranach. Perhaps for some reason the visual arts genetic makeup is weak in the German people, while the musical one is overhelmingly strong.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 12-03-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
The rest of them, including Beethoven, seem to have been more or less indifferent to art. If preserved quotes are any guide.

We don't have documented evidence of many composers thoughts on art, but Rachmaninov and Reger were inspired by the Swiss painter Arnold Bocklin's 'Isle of the dead'. Scriabin was influenced by Kandinsky and they experimented in the early 1900s with synesthesia (associations of sound with colour). Chopin was friends with Delacroix who also painted George Sand. Tchaikovsky's favourite painting which hung above his bed was predictably called 'melancholy'! Schoenberg was himself quite an accomplished artist, and Stravinsky and Picasso collaborated on Pulcinella in 1920.

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'Man know thyself'

[SturmundDrang]

Thanks to both of you. The point about the art being primarily in private collections is a good one, but this does not rule out the possibility (and perhaps reinforces it) that Beethoven had the opportunity to view such art. Considering his close ties to the Princes Lobkowitz and Lichnowsky, the Archduke Rudolph and other nobles, it seems that he would have been aware at the very least of the kinds of pieces they owned. In addition, as you point out, churches and other structures were publicly visible. There is a huge Gothic church called St Stephen's in Vienna, for instance, but I have no idea whether Beethoven ever set foot in it or had any opinion about it. (Goethe, on the other hand, was very vocal about Gothic architecture and how it represented the best of German art, praising in particular the Strasbourg cathedral). Perhaps there was a dearth of German painters, but there were certainly some greats, like Caspar David Friedrich, who lived around the same time as Beethoven; and I think there was a pretty strong degree of exchange between European countries in the form of prints and so on so he would have had some exposure to French, Italian, English, and Spanish art. What amazes me is that there's nothing about this in the sorces.

[Sorrano]

Don't forget Mussorgksy's Pictures at an Exhibition.

[Peter]

Originally posted by SturmundDrang:
Thanks to both of you. The point about the art being primarily in private collections is a good one, but this does not rule out the possibility (and perhaps reinforces it) that Beethoven had the opportunity to view such art. Considering his close ties to the Princes Lobkowitz and Lichnowsky, the Archduke Rudolph and other nobles, it seems that he would have been aware at the very least of the kinds of pieces they owned. In addition, as you point out, churches and other structures were publicly visible. There is a huge Gothic church called St Stephen's in Vienna, for instance, but I have no idea whether Beethoven ever set foot in it or had any opinion about it. (Goethe, on the other hand, was very vocal about Gothic architecture and how it represented the best of German art, praising in particular the Strasbourg cathedral). Perhaps there was a dearth of German painters, but there were certainly some greats, like Caspar David Friedrich, who lived around the same time as Beethoven; and I think there was a pretty strong degree of exchange between European countries in the form of prints and so on so he would have had some exposure to French, Italian, English, and Spanish art. What amazes me is that there's nothing about this in the sorces.

Yes with his acquaintance with many of the leading aristocracy (including the Emperor's brother Archduke Rudolph) he must have come across many great works of art. Yet it seems his primary interest other than music was literature - he lavishes praise on poets in his letters such as Goethe, but never painters. He certainly did not enjoy being painted and even with perhaps the greatest artist to paint him, Waldmuller, he seems to have had little respect describing him as the worst painter he had ever met.

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'Man know thyself'

[Droell]

Originally posted by SturmundDrang:
There is a huge Gothic church called St Stephen's in Vienna, for instance, but I have no idea whether Beethoven ever set foot in it or had any opinion about it. (Goethe, on the other hand, was very vocal about Gothic architecture and how it represented the best of German art, praising in particular the Strasbourg cathedral).

This goes to Beethoven's parish affiliation. St. Stephen's is a cathedral. Under it are smaller parish churches scattered through the city. The church you belong to is generally based on your address (much like school districts), but as B was not a native & moved around the city & environs, there is a question as to which - if any - parish he belonged to. Some of the part writing in the Credo of the Missa points up the fact that while Beethoven felt a close relationship to Christ (parallel thirds at one point), he was suspicious of the Church itself.

The Missa was written for the enthronement of a bishop, which customarily happens in a cathedral, perhaps in St. Stephens itself. It would be interesting to know where the Mass in C was first premiered. If in a church, it would be of interest to put the music in one's ears, go the the building, and see if, in any way, the music seems to "fit" the place. Yeah, it's a long shot, but then there's always Berlioz & his Requiem to think about.

Of course Beethoven knew of St. Stephens. These are huge buildings, they stick out like eyesores. Like Goethe, I know & love Das Muenster in Strasbourg. Its spire can be seen many, many miles away.

[Beyond Within]

This may have something to do with the fact that Germany is not one of the leading countries in the visual arts in general. It produced only three or four first-rate great painters in Renaissance and post-Renaissance European times: Durer, Holbein, Grunewald and possibly one can admit Cranach.
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Don't forget Albrecht Altdorfer, and his monumental landscape painting, 'The Battle of Issus.'! One of my favorites. I am glad you mentioned Dürer, though, for I love his work as well.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
This may have something to do with the fact that Germany is not one of the leading countries in the visual arts in general. It produced only three or four first-rate great painters in Renaissance and post-Renaissance European times: Durer, Holbein, Grunewald and possibly one can admit Cranach.
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Don't forget Albrecht Altdorfer, and his monumental landscape painting, 'The Battle of Issus.'! One of my favorites. I am glad you mentioned Dürer, though, for I love his work as well.

I knew I was forgetting someone, but could not bring him to mind, and it is Altdorfer.

As to the other artists mentioned, even Friedrich and Bocklin cannot really be compared with painters like Delacroix, Ingres and 15 or 20 other French artists of the 19th Century. German Gothic architecture is an exception to what I said, and is very great, but I was talking about Renaissance and post- Renaissance times (including the 19th century), when Germany's contributions to visual art were meager compared with Italy, France and the Low Countries (an exception must be made for the tremendous work of the German Baroque architect Balthasar Neumann). And although everything Peter mentions is true, I still find it noteworthy that, to my knowledge anyway, there is not one enthusiastic quote about visual art from the real heavyweights of German music, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann and Brahms, except for the one Holbein quote by Wagner which I mentioned. And quotes from these men are not noticably lacking, in general.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 12-04-2005).]