Haydn gives up

[Peter]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Yes, but many other composers did the same (submitting previously-published or old works of their own), especially when they were too busy to compose anything new (which Haydn definitely was).

As for the publishing of Pleyel's works, I've never heard of that before. You said, you know for a fact; I would like to see proof. (I am not saying it's not true, just that I've never read that before). Do you have a reference for this that I can check out?

I don't know if you've seen this thread from earlier in the year - I'm sure it will be of interest!
http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002035.html

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Yes, but many other composers did the same (submitting previously-published or old works of their own), especially when they were too busy to compose anything new (which Haydn definitely was).

As for the publishing of Pleyel's works, I've never heard of that before. You said, you know for a fact; I would like to see proof. (I am not saying it's not true, just that I've never read that before). Do you have a reference for this that I can check out?

H.C. Robbins Landon
*Haydn in England 1791-1795*
Thames and Hudson
London 1776
page 119


Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
H.C. Robbins Landon
*Haydn in England 1791-1795*
Thames and Hudson
London 1776
page 119

That should be London 1976. Sorry.

Hofrat

[Kalimac]

What Landon says is that a London publisher asked Haydn to supply him with trios. Haydn sent him one of his own and two by Pleyel, which the publisher issued as Haydn's. Doesn't say Haydn actually tried to pass them off as his own.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Kalimac:
What Landon says is that a London publisher asked Haydn to supply him with trios. Haydn sent him one of his own and two by Pleyel, which the publisher issued as Haydn's. Doesn't say Haydn actually tried to pass them off as his own.

Dear Kalimac;

Haydn was commissioned to write 3 piano trios by an English publisher. Haydn sends one of his own and two of Pleyel, clearly in violation of the commission. The English publisher did not know that two of the works were Pleyel's and published them as Haydn's.

Little do the above parties know, but Pleyel published his trios with another publisher. When copies from Pleyel's publisher are sold in London, Haydn's publisher realizies that he is the victim of Haydn's duplicity. The publishers are compelled to take leagal action.


Hofrat

[HaydnFan]

What was the motive for doing that?

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
What was the motive for doing that?

Dear HaydnFan;

This was not an innocent mistake by Haydn. Haydn knew that he only completed a third of the commission, and that he was not allowed to "subcontract" the work to another composer.

I can only postulate that Haydn's motive was quick money. His receiving 2 trios from Pleyel gave Haydn an elegant and lucrative way to finish the commission. Pleyel was Haydn's pupil, so stylistically the 2 composers would be similiar. Pleyel lived and worked in Strassburg, France so he would be virtually unknown in England. It was a golden opportunity for Haydn to hoodwink his English publisher.

Haydn's downfall was his failure to take into account that Pleyel would submit his trios to a French publisher simultaneous to sending them to Haydn. The French scores reached London stores at the same time as the English scores. Then, all hell broke loose!! The publishers sued each other and both sued Haydn.


Hofrat

[HaydnFan]

Well that would have been embarassing for Haydn I guess, especially so late in his career. What a blunder.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear HaydnFan;

This was not an innocent mistake by Haydn. Haydn knew that he only completed a third of the commission, and that he was not allowed to "subcontract" the work to another composer.

I can only postulate that Haydn's motive was quick money. His receiving 2 trios from Pleyel gave Haydn an elegant and lucrative way to finish the commission. Pleyel was Haydn's pupil, so stylistically the 2 composers would be similiar. Pleyel lived and worked in Strassburg, France so he would be virtually unknown in England. It was a golden opportunity for Haydn to hoodwink his English publisher.

Haydn's downfall was his failure to take into account that Pleyel would submit his trios to a French publisher simultaneous to sending them to Haydn. The French scores reached London stores at the same time as the English scores. Then, all hell broke loose!! The publishers sued each other and both sued Haydn.


Hofrat

The circumstances need to be considered. The professional Concert management had secured the services of Pleyel and were conducting a vigorous campaign against Haydn claiming he was old, spent and past producing anything of interest. To counter these claims Haydn announced he would produce a series of new works, which put him under intolerable pressure "in order to keep my word to poor Salomon, I must be the victim and work incessantly, and I really am feeling the strain, my eyes give me most trouble and I have many sleepless nights".

There was no animosity between Haydn and Pleyel. Haydn said of him "he behaved so modestly, he knows how to value his old father, we shall share our renown and both go home content."



------------------
'Man know thyself'

[sjwenger]

The discussion of Haydn passing off someone else's work reminds me of a Beethoven story. Beethoven had been sent to study under Haydn, and Haydn assigned him to write some exercises that Beethoven thought were beneath him. So he hired a young student to complete the exercises for him, and gave that to Haydn. In addition, rather than applying himself to composition, he submitted to Haydn some works he had completed some years earlier. Haydn was so pleased with them that he wrote a letter to Beethoven's patron pleading for more money for Beethoven, who was so impoverished, Haydn feared he would fall under the influence of money-lenders. In fact, he said, Beethoven didn't even have enough money to pay for his lessons, and Haydn was teaching him on credit. He sent along some of Beethoven's work to show what a serious young student he was. The patron wrote back a furious letter: for one thing, he was supporting Beethoven far more generously than Beethoven had told Haydn, there was certainly enough funds to pay for his studies. For another thing, the patron had heard the music Beethoven wrote for Haydn, some YEARS ago, and Beethoven must not be learning anything, so he must return home and get a real job instead of wasting his time and Haydn's.

To Haydn's vast credit, he accepted this with good grace, and continued amicable relations with Beethoven.


------------------
To learn about "The Port-Wine Sea," my parody of Patrick O'Brian's wonderful Aubrey-Maturin series, please contact me at
susanwenger@yahoo.com

To learn about "The Better Baby" book, ways to increase a baby's intelligence, health, and potentials, please use the same address.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
The circumstances need to be considered. The professional Concert management had secured the services of Pleyel and were conducting a vigorous campaign against Haydn claiming he was old, spent and past producing anything of interest. To counter these claims Haydn announced he would produce a series of new works, which put him under intolerable pressure "in order to keep my word to poor Salomon, I must be the victim and work incessantly, and I really am feeling the strain, my eyes give me most trouble and I have many sleepless nights".

There was no animosity between Haydn and Pleyel. Haydn said of him "he behaved so modestly, he knows how to value his old father, we shall share our renown and both go home content."

Dear Peter;

No, Peter, you have it backwards. Haydn was under pressure to produce a series of new works in London because of this trio incident and the Paris symphonies incident. The London publishers and sponsors just did not trust Haydn anymore. Haydn complained that Pleyel had it easy because Pleyel brought a trunk load of compositions with him from France which freed Pleyel from the task of composing on the spot in London.

Haydn was a victim of his own doing. It is a true credit to Pleyel that he bared no grudge against Haydn and that Pleyel behaved modestly toward his old teacher.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Haydn complained that Pleyel had it easy because Pleyel brought a trunk load of compositions with him from France which freed Pleyel from the task of composing on the spot in London.

Hofrat

Rightly so as Pleyel gave the impression he was providing them with new compositions, but in fact these were old works (from France as you say) that had not been previously performed. As a result Haydn was subjected to unfair pressure as he himself complained.


------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-24-2005).]