Czerny and Ries

[Teresa]

Greetings all --

What would be good introductions to the music of Ries and Czerny? It seems the piano works of Czerny are hard to find, although the symphonies of Ries seem pretty available. As always, your guidance is appreciated.

Teresa

[Raro]

Dear Teresa,

Excellent composers to get aquainted with, especially if you like Beethoven! They're both a bit in between labels, although Ries is substantially represented by CPO; they recorded some of his piano trios, quartets and sextets, his piano quintet, some of his cello sonatas, his septet, his octet (twice!) and his symphonies. A perfect place to start, though, would be the newly-released recording on the Naxos label: volume 1 of what will be a cycle of his complete piano concertos. I've bought it myself immediately, it's really amazing music! The earliest of the both concertos recorded has a lot in common with Beethoven, but the late concerto is somewhere in between the master and Chopin. Especially at Naxos price, you can't go wrong. Another splendid Naxos disc is the one with his clarinet trio (recently recorded on CPO as well, but with other forces, transforming it into a piano trio), coupled with a performance of Beethoven's rare op.38 clarinet trio (own transcription of the septet op.20). Very nice, but more expensive, too, is the disc with the complete cello sonatas on Dynamic, although I'm not sure whether that's still available. His horn sonata is a damn good piece (pardon my french!) as well, splendidly recorded by both Crystal and Harmonia Mundi.

Czerny is a tougher case. He wrote an amazing amount of music, but most of it are merely piano exercises. Thankfully, over the past years he starts to be appreciated again. A perfect introduction and must have disc is the one with 2 of his best and largest chamber pieces on MD+G - this contains a quartet (piano, cello, clarinet & horn) and nonet (with piano, a.o.). Beautiful, accessible music that's more modern than Beethoven in his middle period, but not yet Schumann either. His symphonies are impressive works (3 of them have been recorded on Signum), and another nice introduction would be his 2 large piano quartets (4 pianos!), rare, but available on Ars Production. I could also vigourously recommend the 80-minute disc with his complete works for piano and horn, played on authentic instruments, on the midprice Helios label from Hyperion, but that's only of you're into horn chamber music...

Good luck, if you've got any more questions, I'd be happy to answer them!

Raro.

[Brithooven]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Greetings all --

What would be good introductions to the music of Ries and Czerny? It seems the piano works of Czerny are hard to find, although the symphonies of Ries seem pretty available. As always, your guidance is appreciated.

Teresa

I have two recordings of Carl Czerny on disc. I saw pianist Anton Kuerti a year ago in Vancouver, Canada. After the performance, I picked them up in the foyer. One is an 'Analekta fleurs de lys' (FL 2 3141) recording of Czerny's sonata no. 1, opus 7, with sonata no. 3, opus 57 (pianist Keurti). The other is a CBC records disc (MVCD 1150) of the 'Grand Sonata for Pianoforte and Violin in A major' coupled with '20 Concert Variations in D major for Piano and Violin on a theme by Krumpholz, opus 1' - piano Kuerti, violin Erika Raum. Quite enjoyable music. Both are listed on the Tower Records site (U.S.).

[Kalimac]

If you want some Czerny, then buy a copy of the November issue of BBC Music Magazine, for his Grand Symphony in C Minor of 1845, which is very Beethovenian, is on the included CD, along with Mendelssohn's "Calm Sea & Prosperous Voyage" and Violin Concerto.

A number of Ries symphonies have been recorded, though I haven't heard them. Beethoven said of Ries, "he copies me too much" or words to that effect, and I suspect he'd have said the same of Czerny if he'd lived to see the score.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Greetings all --

What would be good introductions to the music of Ries and Czerny? It seems the piano works of Czerny are hard to find, although the symphonies of Ries seem pretty available. As always, your guidance is appreciated.

Teresa

Dear Teresa;

I have the following recordings of Ries:
1. All 8 symphonies.
2. The C# minor piano concerto.
3. All of his cello sonatas.
4. The piano quintet.

I have the following recordings of Czerny:
1. 1st and 5th symphonies.
2. Divertimento for piano and orchestra.


Hofrat

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Raro:
Dear Teresa,

Excellent composers to get aquainted with, especially if you like Beethoven! They're both a bit in between labels, although Ries is substantially represented by CPO; they recorded some of his piano trios, quartets and sextets, his piano quintet, some of his cello sonatas, his septet, his octet (twice!) and his symphonies. A perfect place to start, though, would be the newly-released recording on the Naxos label: volume 1 of what will be a cycle of his complete piano concertos. I've bought it myself immediately, it's really amazing music! The earliest of the both concertos recorded has a lot in common with Beethoven, but the late concerto is somewhere in between the master and Chopin. Especially at Naxos price, you can't go wrong. Another splendid Naxos disc is the one with his clarinet trio (recently recorded on CPO as well, but with other forces, transforming it into a piano trio), coupled with a performance of Beethoven's rare op.38 clarinet trio (own transcription of the septet op.20). Very nice, but more expensive, too, is the disc with the complete cello sonatas on Dynamic, although I'm not sure whether that's still available. His horn sonata is a damn good piece (pardon my french!) as well, splendidly recorded by both Crystal and Harmonia Mundi.

Czerny is a tougher case. He wrote an amazing amount of music, but most of it are merely piano exercises. Thankfully, over the past years he starts to be appreciated again. A perfect introduction and must have disc is the one with 2 of his best and largest chamber pieces on MD+G - this contains a quartet (piano, cello, clarinet & horn) and nonet (with piano, a.o.). Beautiful, accessible music that's more modern than Beethoven in his middle period, but not yet Schumann either. His symphonies are impressive works (3 of them have been recorded on Signum), and another nice introduction would be his 2 large piano quartets (4 pianos!), rare, but available on Ars Production. I could also vigourously recommend the 80-minute disc with his complete works for piano and horn, played on authentic instruments, on the midprice Helios label from Hyperion, but that's only of you're into horn chamber music...

Good luck, if you've got any more questions, I'd be happy to answer them!

Raro.

Hello, Raro, and thanks for the helpful response. I can't get enough Beethoven so I figured Ries and Czerny would be good composers to explore, as well! I did find the nonet you mentioned on Amazon and plan on purchasing that right away. The symphonies of Ries seem to be plentiful, and they seem to have favorable reviews, and if the concertos are somewhat of a mix between B and Chopin, that's an added bonus, as I love Chopin as well. Thanks again, Raro, for your helpful insights and recommendations. I'm looking forward to hearing these recordings in the near future. I also plan to purchase some Hummel.

Kind regards,
Teresa

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Brithooven:

I have two recordings of Carl Czerny on disc. I saw pianist Anton Kuerti a year ago in Vancouver, Canada. After the performance, I picked them up in the foyer. One is an 'Analekta fleurs de lys' (FL 2 3141) recording of Czerny's sonata no. 1, opus 7, with sonata no. 3, opus 57 (pianist Keurti). The other is a CBC records disc (MVCD 1150) of the 'Grand Sonata for Pianoforte and Violin in A major' coupled with '20 Concert Variations in D major for Piano and Violin on a theme by Krumpholz, opus 1' - piano Kuerti, violin Erika Raum. Quite enjoyable music. Both are listed on the Tower Records site (U.S.).

Thanks for the information - I never think to check on Tower Records.

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Teresa;

I have the following recordings of Ries:
1. All 8 symphonies.
2. The C# minor piano concerto.
3. All of his cello sonatas.
4. The piano quintet.

I have the following recordings of Czerny:
1. 1st and 5th symphonies.
2. Divertimento for piano and orchestra.


Hofrat

Hello, Hofrat -

What do you think of the Ries symphonies?

[Droell]

Originally posted by Kalimac:


A number of Ries symphonies have been recorded, though I haven't heard them. Beethoven said of Ries, "he copies me too much" or words to that effect, and I suspect he'd have said the same of Czerny if he'd lived to see the score.

It's been argued that Beethoven never really said that, but that's a quibble. Ries was Beethoven's copiest. Not only did he see Beethoven scores before anyone else alive, he also arranged many of Beethoven's early works for various chamber forces, arrangements which Beethoven would merely proof. According to Ries's own account, when published, these all claimed to be arranged by Beethoven himself. So the influence of Beethoven on the early Ries cannot be underestimated. This can clearly be heard in the two early cello sonatas, which Ries wrote to perform on tour with Bernard Romberg.

However, after he settled in London in 1813, Ries begins to develop a quite different style, which has been erroneously described as proto-Chopin or proto-Mendelssohn. A more apt description would be a London style of some sort, as it was clearly an influence on these two later composers. My question is how much of Ries's mature style is Ries, and how much was a collaborative effort of Ries, Hummel, Ireland, Pleyel & various others working in London at that time.

Ries's style changes again as a consequence of his disasterous return to the Rhine in 1824. Instead of returning a hero (note the title of the recently recorded piano concerto, Salut au Rhin), he fell into obscurity. Cecil Hill published Ries's collected correspondence some 20 years ago. Virtually all of it is in German, which I cannot read, but there are occasional notes from his wife, whom he called Hat, written on the back of his letters in the few moments before the post arrived.

According to her, by 1835 Ries was profoundly depressed. One of her brief notes mentions his final opera, The Robber's Bride, which she says has some of his finest music. So far as I know, it has never been performed. This is also the time of his final symphony, which Hill declares his best. Having heard them all, I agree.

In it, Ries largely drops the intellectual pretensions which so strongly color his London period. I suspect he was reduced to composing while bitter, angry & depressed. If so, then in his final symphony he got more so during the last two movements. It seems to me, the more unhappy he got, the better he wrote.

Which, I think, may bring us back to Beethoven, with his upset tummy & unhappy love life & fabulous music. If only Ries had been a little less happy!

Now that I think of it, much the same conclusion can also be drawn from the life & music of Hector Berlioz. Gotta go run an errand, am late.

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Droell:
It's been argued that Beethoven never really said that, but that's a quibble. Ries was Beethoven's copiest. Not only did he see Beethoven scores before anyone else alive, he also arranged many of Beethoven's early works for various chamber forces, arrangements which Beethoven would merely proof. According to Ries's own account, when published, these all claimed to be arranged by Beethoven himself. So the influence of Beethoven on the early Ries cannot be underestimated. This can clearly be heard in the two early cello sonatas, which Ries wrote to perform on tour with Bernard Romberg.

However, after he settled in London in 1813, Ries begins to develop a quite different style, which has been erroneously described as proto-Chopin or proto-Mendelssohn. A more apt description would be a London style of some sort, as it was clearly an influence on these two later composers. My question is how much of Ries's mature style is Ries, and how much was a collaborative effort of Ries, Hummel, Ireland, Pleyel & various others working in London at that time.

Ries's style changes again as a consequence of his disasterous return to the Rhine in 1824. Instead of returning a hero (note the title of the recently recorded piano concerto, Salut au Rhin), he fell into obscurity. Cecil Hill published Ries's collected correspondence some 20 years ago. Virtually all of it is in German, which I cannot read, but there are occasional notes from his wife, whom he called Hat, written on the back of his letters in the few moments before the post arrived.

According to her, by 1835 Ries was profoundly depressed. One of her brief notes mentions his final opera, The Robber's Bride, which she says has some of his finest music. So far as I know, it has never been performed. This is also the time of his final symphony, which Hill declares his best. Having heard them all, I agree.

In it, Ries largely drops the intellectual pretensions which so strongly color his London period. I suspect he was reduced to composing while bitter, angry & depressed. If so, then in his final symphony he got more so during the last two movements. It seems to me, the more unhappy he got, the better he wrote.

Which, I think, may bring us back to Beethoven, with his upset tummy & unhappy love life & fabulous music. If only Ries had been a little less happy!

Now that I think of it, much the same conclusion can also be drawn from the life & music of Hector Berlioz. Gotta go run an errand, am late.

Very interesting, Droell. Sounds like I'll definitely need to look into the Ries symphonies, as well as lots of other pieces by both Ries and Czerny. Any recommendations of Hummel would be appreciated, too.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Hello, Hofrat -

What do you think of the Ries symphonies?

Dear Teresa;

Ries' symphonies are very good. I play mine all the time. You can hear Beethoven's influence.

Hofrat

[Kalimac]

Teresa wrote, "I can't get enough Beethoven so I figured Ries and Czerny would be good composers to explore."

They're very Beethovenian, to be sure, but they're not always that inspired of composers. Now besides composers like Schubert and Schumann, who followed very much in Beethoven's footsteps (Schumann's Fourth Symphony is built on the same template as Beethoven's Fifth, quite consciously), I'd suggest some other composers writing at that time: Ignaz Pleyel (there's a superb recording of his Opp. 66 & 68 on Chandos), E.N. Mehul, J.W. Wilms. All very fine composers, not Beethoven's pupils but much in his tradition (Mehul in particular is astoundingly Beethovenian at times). Also try the symphonies of Louise Farrenc, the first female Beethovenian symphonist.

[Droell]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Very interesting, Droell. Sounds like I'll definitely need to look into the Ries symphonies, as well as lots of other pieces by both Ries and Czerny. Any recommendations of Hummel would be appreciated, too.

Regret I'm not so exacting a source. Every now & then the radio plays concerti by contemporaries of Beethoven. I've been struck by how simple they are, how pre-Chopin they sound, how much unlike Beethoven. I've deduced that Ries, in his mature works, is doing pretty much the same thing, only much more sophisticated, for better or worse. Musicologists are having fun finding many interesting things in Ries, things rarely done before or since. Ries is as much a thinker as a composer. He likes details.

When I first heard the music of Ries, about 15 years ago, the performances seemed a muddle, which made the music sound bad as as well. I'm thinking of the Littauer/Springer/Hamburg recording of the c-sharp minor concerto, op. 55, from about 20 years ago. Am curious what Uwe Grodd &
Christopher Hinterhuber will make of it.

At the moment I'm listening to his first symphony, which is quite good. The Zurich/Griffiths performaces are well done. I should take these discs out for a spin more often.





[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 11-23-2005).]