The key of a work

[Chaszz]

If a work is listed as being in a certain key, I 'd assume the first movement is in that key. How likely are the other movements to also be in that key? How about in a relative major or minor of the original key, or the tonic of the key as a dominant, or some other logical relationship? On the other hand, in how may instances are the other movements in keys more or less unconnected to the original key? This may be a question which does not lend itself to easy generalization but I'd be very grateful if one or more of the musicians here would take a crack at it.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 11-06-2005).]

[Peter]

Usually in a classical sonata or symphony the first movement, minuet/scherzo and last movements would be in the named key. The slow movements would generally be in related keys, but not always as in the case of Beethovens 3rd and 5th piano concertos. A minor key work may sometimes have its final movement in the tonic major as in B's 5th and 9th symphonies.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

I find that the general rule of thumb re: the key of a work is the key in which the first movement ends. Interesting about the E flat 5th concerto is that B flat rather than B for the adagio would make perfect musical sense, but then we'd be denied that breath-taking semi-tone drop before the "attacca" back into that glorious E flat rondo!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:
I find that the general rule of thumb re: the key of a work is the key in which the first movement ends. Interesting about the E flat 5th concerto is that B flat rather than B for the adagio would make perfect musical sense, but then we'd be denied that breath-taking semi-tone drop before the "attacca" back into that glorious E flat rondo!

Although it became more common to use the VI of the key for the tonal center of the slow movement, such as in the E-flat Concerto. And I do agree whole heartedly with that "attacca" description! Breath-taking, indeed!!

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by PDG:
I find that the general rule of thumb re: the key of a work is the key in which the first movement ends. Interesting about the E flat 5th concerto is that B flat rather than B for the adagio would make perfect musical sense, but then we'd be denied that breath-taking semi-tone drop before the "attacca" back into that glorious E flat rondo!

Not wanting to be rude or anything, it does make perfect sense. Usually in a concerto the second movement is a third (major or minor) above or below.
here: (concerto - key - 2nd mov key)
1 - C Major - A flat Major
2 - B flat Major - E flat Major
3 - C minor - E major
4 - G minor - E minor
5 - E flat Major - B major (a.k.a. C flat major)

So, you see, the relation between the 1st and 2nd movs. of the 1st concerto and the 5th is the same. The only one that uses a close key is the 2nd concerto, and that may be because it's the earliest.
When you go through the possible keys to a non-1st or non-4th movement of a piece, you get a general rule that only the 2nd and the 7th should not be used. I don't know if this was broken neither by whom.



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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Hofrat]

Rutradelusasa wrote:

"So, you see, the relation between the 1st and 2nd movs. of the 1st concerto and the 5th is the same. The only one that uses a close key is the 2nd concerto, and that may be because it's the earliest."

Traditionally, the slow movement is in the subdominant when the first movement is in a major key! That is, a fourth above the tonic. Although in his concerti Beethoven heeded to this tradition only in his 2nd concerto and his violin concerto, he abided by it in many of his symphonies, sonatas, and quartets.

Hofrat

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
(...)he abided by it in many of his symphonies, sonatas, and quartets.

Not many... from all his symphonies, 7 are in major keys, 3 of them do abide (the 1st, the 4th and the 6th) which means they are minority. From his sonatas (for piano) I checked 23 major key ones, from those 21 have slow movements, of those only 6 do abide. I don't have the score, nor the recording for all his quartets (and the rest of his sonatas), but I'm sure that wasn't the rule.

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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited 11-08-2005).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:

Originally posted by Hofrat:
(...)he abided by it in many of his symphonies, sonatas, and quartets.

Not many... from all his symphonies, 7 are in major keys, 3 of them do abide (the 1st, the 4th and the 6th) which means they are minority. From his sonatas (for piano) I checked 23 major key ones, from those 21 have slow movements, of those only 6 do abide. I don't have the score, nor the recording for all his quartets (and the rest of his sonatas), but I'm sure that wasn't the rule.

Dear Rustradelusana;

Maybe I did not make myself clear. In the Classical tradition, the slow movement tends to be in the subdominant or the parallel major/minor. Beethoven uses the subdominat in his 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 9th which is 5 symphonies (a clear majority). I know that the 8th does not have a clear-cut slow movement; nonetheless, the second movement is definately in subdominant. Beethoven uses the parallel major/minor in the 3rd and 7th. So, in 7 out of 9 symphonies, Beethoven followed Classical tradition.

That leaves us with the 2nd symphony with its slow movement in the dominant, and the 5th symphony with its slow movement in the submediant. Not long ago, a slow movement in G was found and scholars believe that this may be a rejected slow movement for the 2nd symphony. If the scholars are right, then Beethoven originally intended to follow Classical tradition with the 2nd symphony too since G is the subdominant of D! That would have been 8 out of 9, a clear landslide victory for Classical tradition.


Hofrat

[Kalimac]

To answer Chaszz's original question, Hofrat's analysis of the keys of slow movements is correct, to which it should also be added:

1) Both of Beethoven's minor-key symphonies have finales in the relative major.

2) Only the Seventh has both middle movements in other keys.

In Brahms, by contrast, all four symphonies have both middle movements in other keys, but of his two minor key symphonies, only the First has a finale in the relative major; the Fourth's finale is in the tonic minor.