Wich of the Beethoven's work is most intimate

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by Peter:
No, Karl was his nephew. There is no evidence to suggest Beethoven was gay - if he were (as you say) so what, but he simply was not!

How can you say that for sure; There is no evidence, as you say, so there would be no reason to think Beethoven was gay, but I don't think you can really say, "he simply was not" if you cannot prove it either way.

[Droell]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
How can you say that for sure; There is no evidence, as you say, so there would be no reason to think Beethoven was gay, but I don't think you can really say, "he simply was not" if you cannot prove it either way.

Haydn Fan, I'm sorry, but that's slander. Classy the Virgin was amusing, but this is not.

[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 11-06-2005).]

[HaydnFan]

Firstly, it does not count as slander if the person is dead and has been dead for a very long time.

Secondly, I don't understand why you are getting so worked up. I never said Beethoven was gay. I never even said there is the slightest possibility that he was gay. I said that nobody can really say that for sure, 100%, he wasn't gay because there is no concrete proof that he was not. Still, it is extremely unlikely that he was gay (there is absolutely no reason to conclude that he was). But how can anyone say he was 100% for sure not gay? That's what I was referring to.

On a separate note, if we found new evidence to possibly suggest he was gay, so what? It seems some people have a real problem with this. I don't know about you, but I would not have a problem at all; I am not at all homophobic and I don't see why being gay should be an insult to someone.

[Peter]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
How can you say that for sure; There is no evidence, as you say, so there would be no reason to think Beethoven was gay, but I don't think you can really say, "he simply was not" if you cannot prove it either way.

Because the maxim in British law is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way round. There is an enormous amount of contemporaneous material regarding Beethoven and I think history would have revealed something by now - just think of the major artisitic figures we do know to have been gay!

Take a major piece of evidence such as the letters to the Immortal beloved - we do not know for certain the true identity of the recipient, but we do know the gender - female!

I've no problem if by some improbable discovery he did turn out to be gay (my admiration for Da Vinci, Michelangelo and Tchaikovsky to name a few, is no less), as it is his music that is of prime importance.


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-07-2005).]

[Droell]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:

Secondly, I don't understand why you are getting so worked up. I never said Beethoven was gay. I never even said there is the slightest possibility that he was gay. I said that nobody can really say that for sure, 100%, he wasn't gay because there is no concrete proof that he was not. Still, it is extremely unlikely that he was gay (there is absolutely no reason to conclude that he was). But how can anyone say he was 100% for sure not gay? That's what I was referring to.

On a separate note, if we found new evidence to possibly suggest he was gay, so what? It seems some people have a real problem with this. I don't know about you, but I would not have a problem at all; I am not at all homophobic and I don't see why being gay should be an insult to someone.

Gays claim they are 10% of the population. Others think the figure is closer to 5%. Which means it's statistically unlikely that any individual is gay. Another reason the burden of proof, as Peter says, will be on the accuser.

It's not just that Beethoven's love interests are among the most thoroughly researched areas of his entire life, but that the current administration of my country has made a fetish of accusing people it doesn't like of various forms of behavior which some parts of the population view unfavorably. ("Senator John McCain fathered a baby out-of-wedlock with a black woman," for example, a lie that may have cost him the nomination of his party.)

Statements like, "But how can anyone say he was 100% for sure not gay?" given without supporting evidence, are idle speculation.

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by Droell:
Statements like, "But how can anyone say he was 100% for sure not gay?" given without supporting evidence, are idle speculation.

This would only be a problem if I had said Beethoven may have been gay, which I did not. There is a big difference between this and saying that in reality, there is very little we can be 100% sure of. Almost everything is subject to at least some uncertainty. As I keep saying, this is the point I am trying to make. To be able to say with complete certainty that someone from 200 years ago is or is not gay is almost impossible without asking them (which of course, we cannot do, we can only speculate). We know from evidence, as you say, that it is extremely unlikely that Beethoven was gay (we probably shouldn't even entertain the question). It remains, as I have said, that he probably wasn't, with of course some statistical uncertainty which you keep denying.

I will restate because you don't seem to understand my point: I never said Beethoven was gay, all I said was that we have to be aware that in the study of a man who lived 200 years ago, we can be 100% certain of very little about him. We can make educated guesses based on available evidence but we really cannot know for sure, without asking him.

On the note of innocent until proven guilty, I completely agree with you, of course. Which is why I never once suggested that Beethoven was gay.

[HaydnFan]

Just to clarify something, this notion of statistical error can apply to anything, really, not just this particular subject and this was my point.

When someone said, "...he simply was not", this sparked my remarks because this statement is so absolute and ignores the statistical uncertainty I was speaking about. Especially in the field of trying to break down the lives and personalities of historical figures which is so notoriously uncertain.

[Brithooven]

It seems strange that this forum has taken such a bizarre route off coarse. It would be relevent if there was any question as to whether an ambivilancy about Beethoven's sexual preferences had any affect on his composition. There is none. On the other hand, his love life (or lack of) certainly did, so it could be considered interesting, as it relates to his mental state at certain times while composing. I prefer to refer to the original question. As a tragic artist, he certainly poured out his soul (cathartically possibly)in his compositions. This certainly indicates an overall intimacy across his works. I find his opus 131 string quartet an outstanding example of this intimacy. The journey he takes us through within it is incredible. To be able to sustain the incredible emotiveness across such an expansive piece is staggering. My favourite of any string quartet, and a piece I am drawn back to time and time again. It probably exemplifies as well as any work why I love Herr Beethoven far above all other composers.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Brithooven:
It seems strange that this forum has taken such a bizarre route off coarse. It would be relevent if there was any question as to whether an ambivilancy about Beethoven's sexual preferences had any affect on his composition. There is none. On the other hand, his love life (or lack of) certainly did, so it could be considered interesting, as it relates to his mental state at certain times while composing. I prefer to refer to the original question. As a tragic artist, he certainly poured out his soul (cathartically possibly)in his compositions. This certainly indicates an overall intimacy across his works. I find his opus 131 string quartet an outstanding example of this intimacy. The journey he takes us through within it is incredible. To be able to sustain the incredible emotiveness across such an expansive piece is staggering. My favourite of any string quartet, and a piece I am drawn back to time and time again. It probably exemplifies as well as any work why I love Herr Beethoven far above all other composers.

Thanks for your sensible post bringing the thread back on course Brithooven! Op.131 is an amazing achievement - one of my favourites also of the quartets.

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'Man know thyself'

[untamed_personality]

I don't know if I've misunderstood the question, but here goes:

1. The cavatina from Op.130. It was said that no other composition of his affected him in quite the same way.

2. The 'Pastoral' Symphony as a whole. A timeless tribute to nature and his love for it.

3. The great 'Hammerklavier' adagio. This "memorial to human suffering" came from a very dark place indeed - the sense of tragedy is overwhelming.

4. The Missa Solemnis, especially the great 'Et vitam venturi saeculi' fugue at the end of the Credo. There is a famous anecdote relating to his "wrestling" with it. Staggering music: "The greatest work which I have composed".

5. Fidelio. Obviously! "Of all my children, the one born of the greatest travail" (or words to that effect).

Again, apologies if I've misunderstood, but I took it to mean the works which would have meant the most to the composer himself.



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Seizing fate by the throat...

[jfienen]

Mine would have to be the last movement of his ninth symphony. Not just because I heard with my dad wiht minnesota orcherstra many years ago, but also becuase I had sung it a few years ago. It will still be number one in my heart.

[jem]

I suppose it would depend upon how one defines "intimate." To me the word means close, personal and familiar. In that sense a symphony does not feel intimate. Although I just attended the Violin Concerto (with Joshua Bell -- fabulous!) and the second movement is quite intimate. The violin and the orchestra relate in what feels to be a very familiar manner.

Still, I think the most intimate piece, for me, is the Adagio of the Hammerklavier Sonata. It feels deeply personal, and is remarkably beautiful. Whenever I hear it I need to stop whatever else I am doing to fully attend to its beauty.

Another would be "An die ferne Geliebte." One almost feels as if they are overhearing a personal message to Beethoven's beloved.