Funeral Movements

[sjwenger]

I have an opinion about the second movements of the Third and Seventh Symphonies that I haven't seen discussed previously. I have to admit I'm not a musicologist or a musician, I'm only a listener (who plinks at a piano occasionally). Here goes - I hope I'm not betraying excessive ignorance here.

The Eroica funeral movement is, well, heroic. It's the funeral of a soldier, with pomp and circumstance. It's sad when anyone dies, but this is a just death, suffered with full honor in the course of heroic battle. It's a manly death, the death of a man who gave his life for a cause he believed in. It's the death a military leader (Napoleon) could use to inspire his men to greater heroism - look at the funeral we give to our heroes. It's an uplifting death, it's the way a man would choose if he had to choose how he's going to die. It's a celebration of death.

I think the Seventh funeral movement is the grief Beethoven carried within his bosom from the time his mother died. The Seventh funeral movement brings back to me the deaths of my own beloved father and mother. It's a movement of grief, of despair, of WHY ME, GOD? WHY DID THIS PERSON HAVE TO DIE? To me, the opening of this movement (other than the desperate chord) isn't even music, it's one repeated note without melody. It's death itself. To me, there's no notion in this movement that "oh, well, she's gone to a better place." When there's a hint of that, it turns instantly back into despair. The Third Symphony funeral movement had a bit of triumph to it, a bit of pride, the Seventh funeral movement is only unredeemed grief.

- Susan

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I think the Seventh funeral movement is the grief Beethoven carried within his bosom from the time his mother died. The Seventh funeral movement brings back to me the deaths of my own beloved father and mother. It's a movement of grief, of despair, of WHY ME, GOD? WHY DID THIS PERSON HAVE TO DIE? To me, the opening of this movement (other than the desperate chord) isn't even music, it's one repeated note without melody. It's death itself. To me, there's no notion in this movement that "oh, well, she's gone to a better place." When there's a hint of that, it turns instantly back into despair. The Third Symphony funeral movement had a bit of triumph to it, a bit of pride, the Seventh funeral movement is only unredeemed grief.

- Susan

Dear Susan;

Beethoven certainly annotated the second movement of "Eroica" as a funeral march, but he made no such annotation in the 7th symphony. This is the first time I heard this movement described in such a way.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Susan;

This is the first time I heard this movement described in such a way.


Hofrat

Well, for what it's worth I think I describe the initial theme as 'a haunting and melancholic march' in the symphonies page of the main site here.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Droell]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I have an opinion about the second movements of the Third and Seventh Symphonies that I haven't seen discussed previously. I have to admit I'm not a musicologist or a musician, I'm only a listener (who plinks at a piano occasionally). Here goes - I hope I'm not betraying excessive ignorance here...

- Susan

Myself, I always thought the 7th was like the 3rd, only warmed-over. Especially the 2nd movements. Us die-hard Beethoven fans aren't never to say or even think that, but there you are. After the first two symphonies, seven is my least favorite.

PS: All I can do is plink at the piano, myself.

[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 11-10-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
To me, there's no notion in this movement that "oh, well, she's gone to a better place." When there's a hint of that, it turns instantly back into despair. The Third Symphony funeral movement had a bit of triumph to it, a bit of pride, the Seventh funeral movement is only unredeemed grief.

- Susan

Despite the sadness and hypnotic rhythm (which influenced Schubert, think of his Death and the Maiden) it isn't really a funeral march - perhaps the rather slow interpretations that this movement is prone to account for this; Beethoven actually marked the movement Allegretto which normally implies a more cheerful character! I'm surprised you don't feel the glorious major section as your glimpse of heaven,
'a ray of sunshine piercing a grey sky' is how Antony Hopkins (the musicologist, not the actor!)described this. Despair such as found in Tchaikovsky's 6th (Finale) or Mahler isn't a quality I associate with Beethoven - for me this movement is just hauntingly beautiful.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
....Despair such as found in Tchaikovsky's 6th (Finale) or Mahler isn't a quality I associate with Beethoven - for me this movement is just hauntingly beautiful.

Ideally the best thing is to avoid programmatic descriptions altogether, though this may make for less interesting reading here.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin