Question about Handel at the Holidays

[Classy_The_Virgin]

I fond this quote on the net from this site gfhadnel: "Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived. I would bare my head and kneel at his grave." (from lvBeethoven)

1 of my grandmothers is the secretary at her church for the last 50 years and loves the song Messiah Hallalewya (spelling?). Is this considered to be the first spirital song and why is this song sung at all the holiday functions EVERY YEAR???!!! Ar there any other classical songs that can take over from where messiah left off?

Thats why I really love Beethoven music, because it has a groove and sounds grounded in strugle and at the same time very MUSICAL (i dont know how else to put that word-->MUSICAL).

Anyway , Does anyone here like the messiah Hallalewya or have sang this song at a function? i'm just curious to know.

[Chris]

The choir at my Church sang the Halleluia chorus from the Messiah last year at Christmas. The Messiah is a great work that contains much great music aside from the Halleluia chorus, though. My favorite bit from it is Ev'ry Valley.

It is great religious music, but it is not really sacred music, at least as the Catholic Church defines it. Beethoven, himself a Catholic, though not very observant, composed two great Masses. This is sacred music suitable for use at Mass, which is the Liturgy of the Latin Catholic Church. In fact, they are musical settings of the Latin text of the Mass (although the Kyrie is in Greek). The Mass in C and the Missa Solemnis are the two Masses Beethoven composed, and they are greater works than the Messiah in my opinion, though very different kinds of works. I believe Beethoven considered the Missa Solemnis his greatest work, greater even than the 9th Symphony.

So while I doubt these works will ever take the place in Western culture that the Messiah has earned for itself, they are great works of sacred music that deserve to be heard at all times of the year. They are not suitable for use at Mass regularly (especially the Missa Solemnis) because of their extreme length and the amount of preparation and musical talent they require, but they can be used at special occasions. I'm not sure about how often they are used at Christmas and Easter, if at all. We are certainly not capable of using these Masses at my church at any time of the year!

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 10-19-2005).]

[Peter]

It certainly isn't considered the first spiritual piece. The singing of hymns is recorded in the bible (Matthew xxvi:30) and Pliny the younger in around AD 112 recorded the Christians as singing songs. These were probably based on folk melodies that later found there way into the official chant repertoire. The oldest surviving of these songs is in Greek and dates from the 3rd century AD - another hymn from this period 'O Gladsome light' is still sung at vespers in the Greek church.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Aside from it's greatness, the Messiah is probably used for holidays so often because 1) it is in English and 2) it has text specifically relating to Christmas/Easter. Most of the great composers the world has had did not write music to English text.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Aside from it's greatness, the Messiah is probably used for holidays so often because 1) it is in English and 2) it has text specifically relating to Christmas/Easter. Most of the great composers the world has had did not write music to English text.

They would, I assume, play it around the world in various languages, the reason why it is played is because it is the greatest piece of music ever written that tells the story of Jesus Christ!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-19-2005).]

[Chris]

You mean they would translate it into other languages (or take the verses from the Bibles in those languages) and sing it that way? I've never heard of this. Wouldn't that fundamentally change the music?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
You mean they would translate it into other languages (or take the verses from the Bibles in those languages) and sing it that way? I've never heard of this. Wouldn't that fundamentally change the music?

The bible is printed in many languages so it is not impossible to imagine someone arranging the piece to cater for the non-English ear. I have a whole DVD of English pieces by Handel sung in German (mostly archive footage from the old East Germany), In fact I think the Hallelujah Chorus is on that disk too, but I could imagine the DDR bureaucrats changing the text a little! I'll check it tonight.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-19-2005).]

[Rod]

I remember there is a DVD of the Mozart arrangement sung in German, so that's a start.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Classy_The_Virgin]

I will listen to a clipof MissA Solemis and O Gladsome Light if i can find it online. I will definately suggest this to gramma,she could probably suggest to the choir. (the church could use some new material, i think

[Ateach Asc]

Originally posted by Classy_The_Virgin:
Is this considered to be the first spirital song ...???!!!

The psalms document some very ancient songs that were cantored by the Priests in the days of the Temple at Jerusalem some 2,500 years before Handel composed the Messiah.

Due to the very grave difficulty most people would encounter attempting to hum any part of B's MS it is not as popularly performed as the Handel work, even though the MS decidedly overwhelms that H work.

Then, preceding these two masterpieces is Bach's very famous (today) Mass in B Minor, although it requires enormous patience or familiarity to hear it performed completely.

The Dresden Amen precedes these works and found its way into Mendelsohn's Reformation Symphony (symphony number 1 or 5 depending on the annotator).

However, another great piece of liturgical music, preceding the compositions mentioned just has got to be Monteverdi's Vespers of the Virgin.

Liturgical music appears to have existed since time immemorial and even today continues to develop new approaches.


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Must it be? It must be!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Ateach Asc:


Due to the very grave difficulty most people would encounter attempting to hum any part of B's MS it is not as popularly performed as the Handel work, even though the MS decidedly overwhelms that H work.

Then, preceding these two masterpieces is Bach's very famous (today) Mass in B Minor, although it requires enormous patience or familiarity to hear it performed completely.

I would not quite say the SM 'decidedly overwhelms' Messiah, the latter itself is an overwhelming piece on the rare occasion it is performed correctly. Though I accept the SM is a unique conception, perfect in itself and as worthy as any offering for the title 'greatest piece of music ever written'.

On the other hand, if you had said that 'Messiah completely overwhelms that B(ach) work', well, I would not find such a need to qualify your remark...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-21-2005).]

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by Rod:
On the other hand, if you had said that 'Messiah completely overwhelms that B(ach) work', well, I would not find such a need to qualify your remark...

You must be joking me, right? Firstly, the only good part of the Messiah is the Overture and of course, the chorus we all know (no need to mention), other than that, it is only really good for putting insomniacs to sleep.

Secondly, how dare you say that any piece of Handel is better than Bach! Bach was much more of a genius than Handel, in my opinion and as I said before, Handel is far overrated. Tchaikovsky was right in calling him fourth rate but I woudl even say Sixth rate: (Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Schubert and THEN Handel, thank you very much.)

[Chris]

Danger, danger, Will Robinson!

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Tchaikovsky was right in calling him fourth rate but I woudl even say Sixth rate: (Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Schubert and THEN Handel, thank you very much.)

TEH BOMB HAS BEEN PLANTED!!1!ONE
RUN TO TEH HILLS!!1!11!!ONEONE!ELEVEN




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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
You must be joking me, right? Firstly, the only good part of the Messiah is the Overture and of course, the chorus we all know (no need to mention), other than that, it is only really good for putting insomniacs to sleep.

Secondly, how dare you say that any piece of Handel is better than Bach! Bach was much more of a genius than Handel, in my opinion and as I said before, Handel is far overrated. Tchaikovsky was right in calling him fourth rate but I woudl even say Sixth rate: (Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Schubert and THEN Handel, thank you very much.)

Don't forget that Haydn owes much to Handel's oratorio style in his own masterpieces, The Seasons and The Creation.