Question about Handel at the Holidays

[Classy_The_Virgin]

I hvae heard the clip of Missa Solemis-this is great. The melody is very beautiful -you could tell hes on another level with this, like he's talking to God.

The choirus sound great even though i don't know what there saying. When i hear stuff like this i think about Ali and how he is so revelutionary and ahead of his times and how people are drawn to him. Same like with Beethoven,

hes the peoples Champ.Thanks for the tips!!

[HaydnFan]

Classy, if you like that stuff, you should also listen to Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus and Mass in C Minor, as well as Haydn's Missa in Augustiis (Nelsonmass)- Does anyone else think that the beginning of Sanctus in this mass is one of the most beautiful religious pieces ever written? These religious works are also very wonderful.

[Peter]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
You must be joking me, right? Firstly, the only good part of the Messiah is the Overture and of course, the chorus we all know (no need to mention), other than that, it is only really good for putting insomniacs to sleep.

Secondly, how dare you say that any piece of Handel is better than Bach! Bach was much more of a genius than Handel, in my opinion and as I said before, Handel is far overrated. Tchaikovsky was right in calling him fourth rate but I woudl even say Sixth rate: (Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Schubert and THEN Handel, thank you very much.)

Don't forget that it was on hearing Handel's Messiah performed in Westminster Abbey that Haydn was inspired to write his two great oratorios. Handel is certainly not a 6th rate composer and in my view belongs in the top rank of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:


Secondly, how dare you say that any piece of Handel is better than Bach! Bach was much more of a genius than Handel, in my opinion and as I said before, Handel is far overrated. Tchaikovsky was right in calling him fourth rate but I woudl even say Sixth rate: (Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Schubert and THEN Handel, thank you very much.)

Well, I gave you my opinion. I also offer Beethoven's - "Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived. I would bare my head and kneel at his grave" (1824).



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I gave you my opinion. I also offer Beethoven's - "Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived. I would bare my head and kneel at his grave" (1824).

Once again it is necessary to comment that, because Bach was never in fashion until about 1850 while Handel was, Beethoven knew Bach almost entirely from one work - "The Well-Tempered Clavier" - and a few motets. This would be analagous to knowing Shakespeare from "Much Ado about Nothing" alone when trying to rank playwrights. And yet Beethoven still said "His name should be ocean, not brook (bach)," and and was very enthusiastic when a publisher announced plans to publish some of Bach's works, calling him "the father of harmony."

Had Beethoven known merely the Chaconne from the 2nd Violin partita, OR merely the B Minor Mass, OR merely The Musical Offering, OR merely ten of the great cantatas, OR merely the Magnificat, OR merely the organ works (I could go on and on), not to mention all or much of it together, Handel would undoubtedly have had quite a run for his money.

Of course Rod knows this, but habitually conveniently ignores it when he drags out that quote over and over again.

But then one shouldn't criticize him, merely pity him for, through no fault of his own but an accident of the genes or the environment, not being able to have some of the deepest and some of the highest experiences a music listener can ever meet with.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Of course Rod knows this, but habitually conveniently ignores it when he drags out that quote over and over again.

Rod does tend to ignore the Beethoven quotes that are favourable to Mozart and Bach. However Handel has suffered in comparison to Bach during the 20th century and it is right that the balance be redressed - both were great musicians and along with Scarlatti, 1685 was an amazing year!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Rod does tend to ignore the Beethoven quotes that are favourable to Mozart and Bach. However Handel has suffered in comparison to Bach during the 20th century and it is right that the balance be redressed - both were great musicians and along with Scarlatti, 1685 was an amazing year!

Redressing the balance is fine. But that is not the same thing as alleging that Bach is a second-rate composer in relation to Handel, and that his reputation as "the tallest peak of the Baroque" is due to a kind of Emperor's New Clothes of classical music fans meekly following the academics' opinions, as Rod has done ocver and over again. It is quite obvious that Rod is unable to hear Bach for what he is and instead of entertaining the possibility of his own listening inability, trots out Beethiven's quotes again and again, conveniently ignoring the fact of Beethoven's unfamiarity with 98% of Bach's scores. As well as a willing distortion of the situation, this is a slap at Bach lovers who are accused of being lemmings following academic opinion rather than alive, vital listeners in their own rights, as Rod sees himself.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-25-2005).]

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Redressing the balance is fine. But that is not the same thing as alleging that Bach is a second-rate composer in relation to Handel, and that his reputation as "the tallest peak of the Baroque" is due to a kind of Emperor's New Clothes of classical music fans meekly following the academics' opinions, as Rod has done ocver and over again. It is quite obvious that Rod is unable to hear Bach for what he is and instead of entertaining the possibility of his own listening inability, trots out Beethiven's quotes again and again, conveniently ignoring the fact of Beethoven's unfamiarity with 98% of Bach's scores. As well as a willing distortion of the situation, this is a slap at Bach lovers who are accused of being lemmings following academic opinion rather than alive, vital listeners in their own rights, as Rod sees himself.
[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-25-2005).]

You've hit the nail on the head, I am glad to see someone is defending my opinion. Again, I must say that I do not hate Handel's music, in fact, I love a lot of it, but one has to admit that he pales in comparison to the great master that is Bach. I might even dare to say that he is right alongside Mozart and Beethoven (and maybe even more brilliant in some ways). Handel was exceptionally talented but he was no Bach.

Then again, I like Haydn and Telemann which people would probably criticize me for. What does everyone think of Haydn anyway? I have heard people say his music is boring and I can see that in some ways I guess...I don't know, I like him!

[Rod]

I have heard so much of Bach myself I am satisfied that Beethoven's position re Handel was correct regardless of how much or how little of Bach Beethoven had been exposed to.

I suspect Beethoven would not have been aware of the Handel works that I regard as the best, at least until he got his Handel volumes when he was virtually on his death bed.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have heard so much of Bach myself I am satisfied that Beethoven's position re Handel was correct regardless of how much or how little of Bach Beethoven had been exposed to.

But are you satisfied with Beethoven's position re.Bach? 'The immortal God of harmony'..... 'His name should be Ocean because of his inexhaustible wealth of combinations and harmonies'.... 'amongst the older composers only Handel and Bach possessed genius'.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
But are you satisfied with Beethoven's position re.Bach? 'The immortal God of harmony'..... 'His name should be Ocean because of his inexhaustible wealth of combinations and harmonies'.... 'amongst the older composers only Handel and Bach possessed genius'.

So Beethoven was aware enough of Bach to say these things (and I assume you believe these are qualified and considered remarks from Beethoven) and so in light of this I refer you to his comments about Handel.

But ultimately it was my own position on the matter i was promoting, not Beethoven's. I am satisfied with my own position Peter, if suddenly a quote from Beethoven was discovered whereby he changed his 'allegiance', I would be forced to disagree.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-25-2005).]

[Rod]

PS I've just uploaded some more '6th rate' music at my site, feel free to join up and hear the awful noise!
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Bach was highly esteemed by Beethoven. He owned among other works, the Well Tempered Clavier, the Inventions and the Toccata in D minor. When Hoffmeister intended to publish Bach's works, Beethoven welcomed that project wholeheartedly. Likewise esteemed by Beethoven was Philip Emanuel Bach, son of Bach. Re Handel also highly esteemed, in a conversation with Stumpf (1824) the ever popular quote and I quote, "he called Handel the greatest composer who ever lived." It seems to me Beethoven thought very highly of both men. Perhaps you could say Bach more in his earlier years and Handel in his later years.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
So Beethoven was aware enough of Bach to say these things (and I assume you believe these are qualified and considered remarks from Beethoven) and so in light of this I refer you to his comments about Handel.

But ultimately it was my own position on the matter i was promoting, not Beethoven's. I am satisfied with my own position Peter, if suddenly a quote from Beethoven was discovered whereby he changed his 'allegiance', I would be forced to disagree.

Well he trots out Beethoven to make his point about Bach, then says he would disagree if Beethoven gave Bach his 'allegiance.' So the Beethoven testimonial to Handel is ultimately meaningless. Only one listener has real authority, that is Rod, whose superior music appreciation skills even trump Beethoven's. We have unfortunately seen what a righteous self-centered attitude such as this can lead to in many areas of human life. And he never considers for a moment that the lack may be his, not the legions of Bach fans. Whom he considers lemmings. Including Beethoven, no doubt!!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Only one listener has real authority, that is Rod, whose superior music appreciation skills even trump Beethoven's. We have unfortunately seen what a righteous self-centered attitude such as this can lead to in many areas of human life. And he never considers for a moment that the lack may be his, not the legions of Bach fans. Whom he considers lemmings. Including Beethoven, no doubt!!

I am critisised when I don't say 'in my opinion' and i am critisised when i do!!

But when it comes to self righteousness from my experience it is surely the Wagnerians and those academics who love Bach beyond reason who are the prime examples.

PS I have never called Bach '6th rate'!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-25-2005).]