Tchaikovsky's lack of appreciation

[untamed_personality]

I like Tchaikovsky's music. Some of it, anyway, especially the violin concerto, first piano concerto and Eugene Onegin. His views on other composers, however, are a little difficult to swallow.

I know Rod is fond of posting the "glimmers" quote regarding B's late Quartets, which is bad enough, but I've heard he generally admired our Ludwig. No, it's his opinions of other composers that baffle me.

Apparently Brahms was "a giftless bastard", Richard Strauss had "an astounding lack of talent" and Handel, of all people, was "fourth-rate...not even interesting"! Even if you don't particularly care for these composers, you have to admit this isn't exactly percipient. You could put the Brahms quote - maybe even the Strauss aswell - down to professional jealousy, but the Handel quote is mind-boggling.

Anybody else heard these quotes? Or know of any other disparaging comments made by one composer about another? And what's your opinion of Tchaikovsky himself?

Cheers,

Daz


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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Pianoprodigy]

I have heard those quotes. I like T' alot

[Raro]

<font color="Red">This was in poor taste. Do not post comments like this. - Chris</font>

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 10-18-2005).]

[Peter]

They were all at it in the 19th century - No one had a good word to say about anyone, it was quite the fashion!

Tchaikovsky's dislike of Handel is probably connected to a Russian hatred of all things connected with England at that time. However he admired Beethoven and adored Mozart. I share your enthusiasm for some of his music, I actually prefer the 2nd piano concerto to the first and my favourite symphonies are the 2nd, 4th and 6th. Eugene Onegin is one of my favourite operas - the Pushkin poem it is based on is also wonderful.

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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
I like Tchaikovsky's music....His views on other composers, however, are a little difficult to swallow....Apparently Brahms was "a giftless bastard."

Please correct me if I am wrong. I believe Tschaikovsky and Brahms met once in St. Petersburg. Brahms was persuaded to postpone is departure in order to attend the dress rehearsal of Tschaikovsky's 5th symphony. Brahms fell asleep in the middle of it, so it is understandable that Tschaikovsky nurtured a bit of a grudge!


Hofrat

[jdidlock]

Tchaik's 2nd Piano Concerto outshines the 1st, in my opinion. The second movement which is sometimes a triple concerto, sometimes a piano trio and at others a piano concerto is utterly RAVISHING! Another particular favourite is (are?) the Rococo Variations.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Please correct me if I am wrong. I believe Tschaikovsky and Brahms met once in St. Petersburg. Brahms was persuaded to postpone is departure in order to attend the dress rehearsal of Tschaikovsky's 5th symphony. Brahms fell asleep in the middle of it, so it is understandable that Tschaikovsky nurtured a bit of a grudge!


Hofrat

I think this meeting occurred in Hamburg - the two composers had hotel rooms next to each other. Brahms delayed his departure to hear the 5th symphony and was impressed except for the finale. Tchaikovsky's poor opinion of Brahms's music (which predates this by at least a decade) was not reflected in his opinion of Brahms the man who he found warm and honest. He was genuinely disappointed when Brahms was unable to take up his offer to conduct in Moscow. I think it's also necessary to remember Tchaikovsky's damning verdict on much of his own music - he himself detested his own 5th symphony!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-19-2005).]

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think this meeting occurred in Hamburg - the two composers had hotel rooms next to each other. Brahms delayed his departure to hear the 5th symphony and was impressed except for the finale. Tchaikovsky's poor opinion of Brahms's music (which predates this by at least a decade) was not reflected in his opinion of Brahms the man who he found warm and honest. He was genuinely disappointed when Brahms was unable to take up his offer to conduct in Moscow. I think it's also necessary to remember Tchaikovsky's damning verdict on much of his own music - he himself detested his own 5th symphony!

Thank you, Peter, informative as ever! I had no idea they had met. I've heard Tchaikovsky didn't like some of his own music, including the Nutcracker. It's similar to Grieg's opinion of his own 'In the Hall of the Mountain King': "Full of cow-pats!" I find this form of self-loathing hilarious - I always find myself muttering "you wrote the thing!"


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Seizing fate by the throat...

[untamed_personality]

Regarding Onegin, I saw it on Artsworld a couple of years ago and was very impressed. I can't remember any of the singers, though. The second act especially blew me away! Lovely music.

I have to admit I haven't heard the second piano concerto! Anyone care to recommend a recording? I tend to like Martha Argerich in this type of thing. Has she recorded it?

Daz

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think this meeting occurred in Hamburg - the two composers had hotel rooms next to each other. Brahms delayed his departure to hear the 5th symphony and was impressed except for the finale.

Thank you, Peter, for the correction.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Thank you, Peter, for the correction.


Hofrat

I think the story of Brahms falling asleep relates to Liszt playing his B minor sonata. It seems rather incredible that anyone could have fallen asleep whilst Liszt played, perhaps Brahms had slightly over-indulged at lunch!

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'Man know thyself'

[HaydnFan]

Haydn often criticized his own work too, I'm sure we have all heard the anecdotes related to this. He even refused to write any operas or any more concertos after hearing those of Mozart (he felt he could never surpass that...)

[Chaszz]

There is a story about Brahms and Tchaikowsky both invited for dinner at another musician's home. This meeting appears to predate the one described above. The account I've found of it is from a classical music website called Music & Vision:

HAPPY CHRISTMAS!
with RICHARD GRAVES

Perhaps everyone else has heard about it before, but this snippet from The Musical Times for April 1903 was new to me. The source is an anonymous article about the violinist Adolph Brodsky, dedicatee of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. One Christmas Brodsky had invited Tchaikovsky to his home, but had omitted to say that Brahms was also there in order to rehearse his Piano Trio in C minor. 'When Tchaikovsky entered the room', Brodsky recalls, 'we were in the midst of it, and he was greatly astonished to find Brahms there. They had never before met. I introduced them to each other. It would be difficult to find two men more different'. Tchaikovsky was the model of gentility - 'His voice was gentle, his manners of the most perfect politeness'. Brahms, needless to say, appeared the exact opposite - 'With his square, somewhat stout figure, hoarse voice and slightly sarcastic smile, he seemed to be an especial enemy of so-called fine manners'. Nevertheless they all seemed to get on surprisingly well and the party looked as if it was going to be a success.

Suddenly the door opened and who should walk in but Grieg and his wife. Though they had not met the great Russian before, they instantly became good friends. As everyone sat down to dinner, Madam Grieg was placed between Brahms and Tchaikovsky. She however soon rose declaring that she was far too nervous to sit between such great men. Grieg thereupon 'sprang to his feet and changed places with his wife and said "But I have the courage"'.

'So the three composers sat together and there was a great deal of fun'. Though Brahms always actively cultivated a reputation for boorishness, in fact this was seldom more than a veneer. A little later 'Brahms drew towards him the dish of strawberry jam and said that no one else should have any, and how Tchaikovsky laughed! It was more like a children's party than a group of great musicians'.

When the meal was over, Brodsky brought out a conjurer's chest 'which I had bought as a present for my little nephew and showed them the tricks. It gave them great pleasure, especially Brahms, who made me explain each trick as soon as I had performed it'.

Soon it was going-home time and the guests began to leave. 'Tchaikovsky remained behind, and as we were going out into the street I asked him: "Were you pleased with Brahms's Trio?" "Don't be vexed with me, my friend," he said, "but I don't like it."'

Perhaps he was a bit miffed at not having any of the strawberry jam!


Copyright © 15 June 2000 Richard Graves, Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, UK

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I've read another account of this meeting, which I can't find at the moment, that stated that things were not as convivial as described above, and there was palpable tension in the room. And that Brahms at one point disparaged his trio, saying that Tchiakowsky would of course find it trivial. This implies that Brahms was aware of the Russian's poor general opinion of his work.