Chopin Piano Concertos

[Beyond Within]

I listened to these today and I was quite underwhelmed. His orcheastral writing was kind of...flat? It lacks he vivacity of what I hear in the Beethoven/Brahms/Mozart concertos that I have - not to mention the intensly beautiful Preludes/Noctures/Etudes/Mazurkas of Chopin himself! Maybe I should be looking for something else out of these...anyone know what that may be? Or is this opinion unanimous?

[Peter]

You are right to comment on the differences between Beethoven's and Chopin's concertos. Of course in Chopin's case the orchestra is subsidary to the piano, it acts as mere accompaniment. However, there are many beauties in the works, especially the slow movements.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[lars-fm]

i agree about the orchestral part
but chopin was 100% pianist so it's somehow natural... i took a look at the 2nd concerto and, at least the piano part, is very "not from this world" ... very nice moments... but that's nothing new for chopin i guess

[atserriotserri]

One of the composers I look forward to immerse in is Chopin, and I found this review that I think may be of help. Incidentally, great quote of Mark Twain (i'm listening now to Wagner orchestral works (Maazel, Berliner Phil.) and I think it's very draw.

"Frédéric François Chopin
The Piano Concertos
(Chamber Version)

Piano Concerto #1, Op. 11
Piano Concerto #2, Op. 21
Fumiko Shiraga, piano
Yggdrasil Quartet
Jan-Inge Haukås, bass
BIS CD-847 DDD 72:14

"I have been told," wrote Mark Twain in his autobiography, "that Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

I am often reminded of that remark when I read the convoluted apologetics some writers feel compelled to make for the weak orchestration in Chopin's two piano concertos. Which, given there is no conclusive evidence that Chopin orchestrated them himself, is a rather odd compulsion.

This fascinating new disc offers arrangements of the concertos for piano (the solo part is identical) and string quintet - consisting of quartet plus double bass - as offered for sale by Chopin's German publishers. There is no direct evidence that Chopin was responsible for these versions either, although he is known to have performed the concertos in chamber settings.

Are these more than simply historical curiosities? Heretical though it may be, I find them actually rather more rewarding than the "originals"; the more intimate nature of chamber playing makes for a more fluid performance, in keeping with what is known of the style Chopin and many of his contemporaries; moreover, textures are clearer and, while the piano still tends to dominate - these are not the only 19th century piano quintets in which that is the case (stand up Johannes Brahms!) - it is less problematic than in the fuller version.

BIS are to be congratulated for this pioneering disc; I am no familiar with any of the performers, but the playing is fresh and extremely sympathetic.

The recording itself is up to BIS's usual very high standard and the liner notes are more than usually informative.

Will it replace the official versions with orchestra? #Nor shall I rush to sell (for instance) my Pollini #1.

I do strongly suspect, however, that next time I want to listen to one of the Chopin concertos, this is the disc I'll turn to.

Highly recommended.

Copyright © Deryk Barker, 1997.

[Beyond Within]

Thanks for this information, I will check it out.

[Haffner]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
I listened to these today and I was quite underwhelmed. His orcheastral writing was kind of...flat? It lacks he vivacity of what I hear in the Beethoven/Brahms/Mozart concertos that I have - not to mention the intensly beautiful Preludes/Noctures/Etudes/Mazurkas of Chopin himself! Maybe I should be looking for something else out of these...anyone know what that may be? Or is this opinion unanimous?

Yes, your criticism is justified. But Chopin himself was not happy with the finished Concertos, only the solo parts.

It's a little unfair to compare Chopin's orchestration to Beethoven's or Brahms. Chopin wrote for the piano, and all but roughly 10 of his compositions are for piano solo. If we are going to compare Chopin's orcheatration to Beethoven's, lets compare Beethoven's dry, uninventive and at times boring paino writting to the vast pianistic imagination of Chopin who invented modern piano technique. They both had their strengths, and orchestral writting was Beethoven's not Chopin's.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Haffner:

If we are going to compare Chopin's orcheatration to Beethoven's, lets compare Beethoven's dry, uninventive and at times boring paino writting to the vast pianistic imagination of Chopin who invented modern piano technique. They both had their strengths, and orchestral writting was Beethoven's not Chopin's.

Hmm - how about some examples of this dry unimaginative piano writing? Perhaps you mean the Diabelli variations or the last sonatas any of which surpass anything Chopin produced. Chopin is always credited with 'inventing' modern piano technique as though Beethoven had no part in it and as though you don't need technique to play the Waldstein, Hammmerklavier or the Appassionata! I'd say that Chopin developed technique further and was perhaps one of the first to communicate his insights through his teaching and music, but he didn't invent it.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-18-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Hmm - how about some examples of this dry unimaginative piano writing? Perhaps you mean the Diabelli variations or the last sonatas any of which surpass anything Chopin produced.

I suggest we can go back much earlier than the last sonatas to find Beethoven piano music that is much better than anything Chopin wrote.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-18-2004).]

[Amalie]

It really is extraordinary to state that Beethoven who is probably the most strikingly original composer for the piano that has ever lived as 'uninventive', is to say the least a little surprising!
As we have remarked on these pages many times before Beethoven was also an awesomely gifted pianist in his own right and quite frankly though I abhor comparisons, nobody would ever convince me that for all Chopin's brilliance he could have in any way have equaled the fire, originality and what was often remarked by contemporaries Beethoven's phenomenal dexterity and ability over the whole keyboard, a point that was emphazised in a excellent lecture that I went to at the British Museum given and also demonstrated by Robert Levin.. It is true I am no great fan of Chopin myself, because I am not really very sympathetic to music that doesn't have any thematic or musical development, but obviously it is all a matter of taste, and good luck to anyone who derives pleasure from it. I would say however that there are some fairly objective musical canons and I think on that basis really Beethoven has virtually no peers.

Beethoven 'dry' I don't even think any of us on this site could even relate to that comment when his music explodes with a richness of every conceivable kind!
An excellent point made in the lecture I referred to was that Beethoven was obsessed with getting the latest versoin of pianos that were produced because his compositional genius was running so far ahead of the technology of the time that literaly there were not enough keys on the piano to express everything that Beethoven wanted to express. The corollary of that is that clearly Beethoven had the ability to range from the highest to the lowest scale of the register, not just in compositional terms, but he was actually able to play every note from the highest to the lowest and constantly expand the range of what was possible. There has simply not been anyone like that since that time up to the present or perhaps I should say with such transcendent genius able to realize that musical adventure.
I sometimes think what must have been going on inside Beethoven's mind is utterly impossible to even approach.


------------------
~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 09-18-2004).]

[King Stephen]

I heard the recording of the Chopin Piano Concerto No.2 arranged for Piano, string quartet and double bass. I was really taken back by the rendition and ordered it the same day. I am waiting for it to delivered. It is coupled with the 1st piano concerto with the same arragement.

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 09-18-2004).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Haffner:
[B]If we are going to compare Chopin's orcheatration to Beethoven's, lets compare Beethoven's dry, uninventive and at times boring paino writting

[B]

I would like to know of which Beethoven's piano pieces you are referring to as 'dry' or uninventive? Boring is the last word I would have come up with to describe his piano works.



------------------
'Truth and beauty joined'

[Sorrano]

Even the small bagatelles and the unpublished piano works are very inventive and well-written. Nothing dry about them!

[Haffner]

I didn't mean the music itself. Yes the last sonatas (epically Op. 111, with it's wonderful second movement) are harmonically, thematically and formally brilliant as almost all of Beethoven's music is; I was referring to the piano writing itself. Much of it is very symphonic and in a way, like the early piano music of Brahms, is written against and not for the piano. Beethoven was a genius and his piano music is wonderful and never tedious, but from a purely pianistic standpoint, the Concertos of Mozart or his Fantasy in C- were as revolutionary in the development of the instrument and its technique as all of the Beethoven solo piano works.

I apologize if what I wrote was taken out of context for I didn't mean the music itself. I, as all of you, love the music of Beethoven, but I am also able to see the real importance of it. In terms of the symphony and treatment of the orchestra, no one will ever be as important as Beethoven, but Chopin is the greatest composer for the piano and I would be surprised to meet a pianist who disagrees. The music seems to play itself, with supple ornamentation, delicate runs, and sudden, divine octave leaps. It makes effective use of the pedal, blending colour and tone, and it is the first piano music to do so. Just as Beethoven created his own world within the vast variety of the symphony, Chopin did the same within the strict confines of the piano. His creativity was linked entirely to the instrument, and for that reason he is neglected today for his musical innovations. Harmonically daring, Chopin greatly influenced Debussy who said of him "It all began with Chopin"

I don't think I really need to defend myself; I made a just observation which was either misinterpreted or which was robbed of its worth by fans blinded by their love for Beethoven. Anyways, I didn't mean to offend so for that I am sorry. Beethoven was deaf, he lacked the luxury of experimenting on the piano, and though he could play better than anyone in his youth, in his time of greatest experimentation fate deprived him of a sense which would have lent him much flexibility. If he had never lost his hearing, who knows what the late piano music would have been like? Or what any of his music would have been like?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Haffner:
I didn't mean the music itself. Yes the last sonatas (epically Op. 111, with it's wonderful second movement) are harmonically, thematically and formally brilliant as almost all of Beethoven's music is; I was referring to the piano writing itself. Much of it is very symphonic and in a way, like the early piano music of Brahms, is written against and not for the piano. Beethoven was a genius and his piano music is wonderful and never tedious, but from a purely pianistic standpoint, the Concertos of Mozart or his Fantasy in C- were as revolutionary in the development of the instrument and its technique as all of the Beethoven solo piano works.

I apologize if what I wrote was taken out of context for I didn't mean the music itself. I, as all of you, love the music of Beethoven, but I am also able to see the real importance of it. In terms of the symphony and treatment of the orchestra, no one will ever be as important as Beethoven, but Chopin is the greatest composer for the piano and I would be surprised to meet a pianist who disagrees. The music seems to play itself, with supple ornamentation, delicate runs, and sudden, divine octave leaps. It makes effective use of the pedal, blending colour and tone, and it is the first piano music to do so. Just as Beethoven created his own world within the vast variety of the symphony, Chopin did the same within the strict confines of the piano. His creativity was linked entirely to the instrument, and for that reason he is neglected today for his musical innovations. Harmonically daring, Chopin greatly influenced Debussy who said of him "It all began with Chopin"

I don't think I really need to defend myself; I made a just observation which was either misinterpreted or which was robbed of its worth by fans blinded by their love for Beethoven. Anyways, I didn't mean to offend so for that I am sorry. Beethoven was deaf, he lacked the luxury of experimenting on the piano, and though he could play better than anyone in his youth, in his time of greatest experimentation fate deprived him of a sense which would have lent him much flexibility. If he had never lost his hearing, who knows what the late piano music would have been like? Or what any of his music would have been like?

I sympathise but can't agree with all of your views. The idea that Beethoven did not experiment with new sounds or textures in his later music as a result of his deafness is simply not true - what about those pages of trills that conclude Op.109 and the ethereal sounds that conclude Op.111? In fact the idea that Beethoven was impaired as a composer because of his deafness I think is also not true - quite the contrary, I believe it no coincidence that he produced his greatest music whilst completely deaf.

Yes Chopin wrote more pianistically from a practical point of view - but Beethoven was not one to pander to musicians whims, whether they be orchestral players, singers or pianists! I acknowledge Chopin's genius and I admire much of his music and yes he had a great influence on the development of technique, but if you do as you say and compare like for like, his 3 sonatas with Beethoven's 32, where's the contest?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Try orchestrating Beethoven's sonatas. I think you will find it a bit difficult as they are not that conducive to the orchestral medium.