Josef Suk

[Chris]

Does anyone have an opinion on this violinist? I'm still not sure what I think...

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Michael]

The first set of B.'s violin sonatas that I ever bought were by Josef Suk and Jan Panenka and I found the performances excellent. The violin tone was a little shrill, if I remember, but I put that down to the recording. They have been released on CD recently on the Supraphon label but I haven't heard them in their new format.
Michael

[Chris]

I was thinking of buying the violin sonatas by him, actually. I have the concerto and romances, and I like them. Some would say he takes the concerto a bit slow, but I like it that way, myself. Thanks.

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Rod]

As with Michael, the first B violin sonotas I bought were by Suk on tape. I chose him simply because they were the cheapest (!) but they stand up very well compared to better known performers. However for the very best set of B violin sonatas, look (if you can find it these days) for the set by Jaap Schroder with Jos van Immerseel on forte piano (Deutche Harmonia Mundi label). This is really first class, 'electric' playing, light years ahead of the best modern instrument sets I've bought over the years.

Rod

[Chris]

Well, Suk's set is certainly not the cheapest now I would take your suggestion, Rod, if I didn't hate listening to Beethoven on period instruments (I like them with everyone else, though, for some reason).

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Michael]

My favourite set of the violin sonatas is the Perlman/Ashkenazy on Decca and in spite of its years, it sounds very well, too. I also have the Kremer/Argerich set but I don't really like it. It's a more modern approach than the Decca but I just don't like their phrasing. The opening of the "Spring" sonata is a disaster, I think.
Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Well, Suk's set is certainly not the cheapest now I would take your suggestion, Rod, if I didn't hate listening to Beethoven on period instruments (I like them with everyone else, though, for some reason).

If you took advantage of my recommendations I'm sure you would eat those words (unless you put B amongst the Wagnerian 'school')!
Certainly there is no logical reason why period instruments should be good for the others yet not B, who was more tuned in to their sounds and potential than any of his contemporaries.

Rod
Rod

[Peter]

I have slightly changed my views on period instruments, thanks to the enthusiam of Rod, but I am still not convinced by the Fortepiano .To my mind, the fortepiano was an instrument still in the development process and it is therefore inferior to the Pianoforte - I agree that allowances must be made when playing Beethoven's works on modern pianos, but I am not convinced that were he still living today (age 230 !!) Beethoven would be insisting that we played his Sonatas on the old Fortepiano instead of a modern piano. Doubtless he would have his preference amongst modern instruments, maybe preferring a Bosendorfer to a Steinway, but I would be amazed if he insisted on a Graf or an Erard. When it comes to orchestral instruments, I think there is more of a case for the use of period instruments and performance practises .

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
If you took advantage of my recommendations I'm sure you would eat those words (unless you put B amongst the Wagnerian 'school')!
Certainly there is no logical reason why period instruments should be good for the others yet not B, who was more tuned in to their sounds and potential than any of his contemporaries.

I never said it was logical, it's just what I like. I've listened to period Beethoven, and have heard several you suggested, but they did nothing for me. Some were worse than others, though. The worst is the Hanover Band. I would rather hear the 9 symphonies pounded out on a bunch of rocks. On the other hand, period Bach, Mozart, etc., I enjoy very much - better than modern instrument versions in many cases. I can't tell you why, those are just my preferences.



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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Michael]

Originally posted by Chris:
I was thinking of buying the violin sonatas by him, actually. I have the concerto and romances, and I like them. Some would say he takes the concerto a bit slow, but I like it that way, myself. Thanks.

I'm going a bit off the original subject here, but I like a slow tempo myself in the violin concerto. My favourite recording is of Zino Francescatti with Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia S.O. Excellent stereo recording and a broad, steady pace with a rather nervous, edgy sound from the soloist which prevents the whole thing becoming too bland, which it can easily do. Incidentally,today somebody gave me a loan of the new clarinet arrangement of the concerto! Michael Collins is the soloist and the Russian National Orch is conducted by Mikhail Pletnev who arranged the work and also wrote the cadenzas. I have only heard a bit of it so I can't give a proper opinion, but I think the Mozart concerto is safe enough for a while! The new version may grow on me, but B.'s own piano arrangement of the concerto has yet to do that.
Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I never said it was logical, it's just what I like. I've listened to period Beethoven, and have heard several you suggested, but they did nothing for me. Some were worse than others, though. The worst is the Hanover Band. I would rather hear the 9 symphonies pounded out on a bunch of rocks. On the other hand, period Bach, Mozart, etc., I enjoy very much - better than modern instrument versions in many cases. I can't tell you why, those are just my preferences.

Your the first person I've heard being so critical of the Hanover Band set. Quite frankly, once I'd heard these symphonies played on period instruments (Norrington's set) my versions by Karajan and Bohm (BPO and VPO respectively) started gathering dust!

Rod

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I was thinking of buying the violin sonatas by him, actually. I have the concerto and romances, and I like them. Some would say he takes the concerto a bit slow, but I like it that way, myself. Thanks.

Virtually everyone takes the Violin Concerto too slow, is it a Beethoven concerto or a gypsy seranade?

Rod

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I have slightly changed my views on period instruments, thanks to the enthusiam of Rod, but I am still not convinced by the Fortepiano .To my mind, the fortepiano was an instrument still in the development process and it is therefore inferior to the Pianoforte - I agree that allowances must be made when playing Beethoven's works on modern pianos, but I am not convinced that were he still living today (age 230 !!) Beethoven would be insisting that we played his Sonatas on the old Fortepiano instead of a modern piano. Doubtless he would have his preference amongst modern instruments, maybe preferring a Bosendorfer to a Steinway, but I would be amazed if he insisted on a Graf or an Erard. When it comes to orchestral instruments, I think there is more of a case for the use of period instruments and performance practises .

I don't prefer the fortepiano on grounds of the sound of these instruments per se, but rather on their suitability for the notes that Beethoven wrote. The fact that so much of B's piano music is clearly not suitable of the modern instrument is the reason, I suggest, why so much of it is is mis-interpreted. Beethoven one posessed an Erard and disliked it soo much he asked (in vain) a local piano maker if he could install a Viennese action into it! B's music is well suited to the Graf, which it why it is the most popular instrument chosen by fp players for Beethoven. I have all of the late period sonatas played on a Graf (Paul Badura-Skoda)and never have they sounded so electric. If B had miraculously came into possession of a modern Steinway do you think he would have wrote music for it in the same manner as the compositions he did write?!!

Rod

[Peter]

The piano version of the Violin Concerto (which was only done at the request of Clementi) is interesting from several points - Beethoven wrote 3 versions of the solo Violin part - the 2nd incorporated the technical changes suggested by Franz Clement (which Beethoven accepted but was not entirely satisfied with, as he considered the 1st version to be musically superior, then after completeing the piano arrangement(in which he returned to the original version) he made a 3rd revision shortly before publication.
Another interesting feature of the Piano Version is the Cadenzas he wrote - highly original, combining Timpani and piano. I have a performance of the Violin Concerto which uses these cadenzas (arr. for Violin and Timpani).
As for the piano version itself - I haven't heard it in years, but I don't recall it making a very favourable impression with me.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
Virtually everyone takes the Violin Concerto too slow, is it a Beethoven concerto or a gypsy seranade?

Rod

Well, "slow" is reletive, I guess. Can you post some times you consider "good"?

Oh, and about the Hanover Band thing - it just seemed to me that there were some problems with certain parts being heard too much over others and things like that. But I think you might have misunderstood me. I didn't mean that the Hanover Band was the worst recording in existence, I meant that it was the worst of your recommendations (for me).



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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain