Brahms vs. Wagner

[HaydnFan]

Does the Brahms vs. Wagner debate still go on among Classical (or should I say Romantic) music lovers? Or does everyone pretty much accept them both?

Personally, I prefer Wagner...Brahms bores me a little bit, I'm sorry to say...maybe I just haven't listened to his music enough yet!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Does the Brahms vs. Wagner debate still go on among Classical (or should I say Romantic) music lovers? Or does everyone pretty much accept them both?

Personally, I prefer Wagner...Brahms bores me a little bit, I'm sorry to say...maybe I just haven't listened to his music enough yet!

I think that they both have their moments and I am inspired by both their music. For myself, I cannot say one is better than the other in terms of their music, but in regards to personalities I think there are no questions.

[Peter]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Does the Brahms vs. Wagner debate still go on among Classical (or should I say Romantic) music lovers? Or does everyone pretty much accept them both?

Personally, I prefer Wagner...Brahms bores me a little bit, I'm sorry to say...maybe I just haven't listened to his music enough yet!

Personally I'm more likely to be bored by a 5 hour Wagner opera than a 40 minute Brahms symphony. Seriously though as Sorrano says they both have much to offer only in Wagner's case you have to be a bit more patient! The rivalry between the old and new music camps, sparked off by the silly manifesto inspired by Joachim and foolishly signed by Brahms, is I'm sure long forgotten today.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

It's interesting how an intense rivalry such as this cools off after an intervening period, and both are accepted as great. I myself enjoy each of them very much. Some of the posters here know of my love for Wagner. I recently spent over a month listening to Brahms' Piano Quintet almost every day. What a colossal work, it could easily be a symphony.

Another famous 19th century rivalry was between the French painters Delacroix (Romantic) and Ingres (Neoclassic) which has ended the same way, with both deemed great artists.

I'd like to recommend those trying Wagner for the first time begin with Tannhauser and Lohengrin. These are mature works, but not of his last period. They are shorter than the later operas, and both are very melodic, full of glorious music, and somewhat more accessible.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-05-2005).]

[HaydnFan]

Yes, but I would argue that as time moves on, Ingres is perceived as being more great because of his obvious talent for painting precise naturalism. Of course, many today cannot identify with his subject matter compared with that of Delacroix.

[Chris]

Brahms over Wagner for me. No question.

[Raro]

Check out my favourite website on the conflict (very bias, though!): http://members.aol.com/abelard2/march.htm

[Raro]

By the way: I'm on the Brahms-side, of course!

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Raro:
Check out my favourite website on the conflict (very bias, though!): http://members.aol.com/abelard2/march.htm

Here is a quote from the main article on this website:

"Schumann attacked the compositions of Wagner on the grounds that they were simply bad music: in Schumann's words, "paltry, downright amateurish, formless, and repellent." What Schumann did not address is that members of the European oligarchy had made the decision to promote Wagner, financially and otherwise, on political grounds. Wagner was financed by King Ludwig II of Bavaria, but the guiding hand behind the operation was Prince Max von Thurn und Taxis, Ludwig's aide-de-camp and a member of the famous Thurn und Taxis family, which has continued in its efforts to extirpate classical culture up to the present day. Wagner and the "futurists" were being deployed as a weapon against great classical music, because their oligarchical sponsors understood and opposed the uplifting effects of classical culture, which tend to foster republican ideas."

At the very time that Wagner was being thus "deployed" to uphold the aristocracy, according to this article, he was anything but a supporter of the existing order. He was a political revolutionary who had to flee after the 1848 revolution and live outside Germany for many years to avoid imprisonment.

Bias is one thing, ridiculousness is another. This has as much substance as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." I suggest this website is not worth the pixels it is written on.

Also, why need there be a continuing battle between Brahms and Wagner? Both have left goodly amounts of great music.

[Raro]

"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

?...did I miss anything? :S

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Raro:
"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

?...did I miss anything? :S

"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was a book, a fabrication put together by the Russian secret police of the last Czar, claiming that there was an actual conspiracy by Jews to take over the world thru duplicity and intrigue. It was entirely false but led to a great deal of antisemitism, had people believing in its conspiracy theory, and stoked the fires of the Holocaust. It is the grandaddy of conspiracy theories. This web page in question in my opinion is an example of that, in claiming that the music of Lizst and Wagner is part of a political plot to suppress republican ideas. Of course this web page is not as serious a matter as the 'Protocols', but is the same kind of paranoid conspiracy mongering.

[Rod]

Brahms or Wagner? It's like choosing between the hangman's noose or the firing squad.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Brahms or Wagner? It's like choosing between the hangman's noose or the firing squad.

But then again, Rod, you do limit your choices... ;-)

I cannot choose the one over the other in terms of musicality. Both have much to offer and I will just enjoy whichever I am in the mood for at the time.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

But then again, Rod, you do limit your choices... ;-)

I dare to suggest that it is the music concerned that is limited. I've just uploaded some new music at my Handel site if you want to hear something other than Beethoven that is much more interesting than Brahms or Wagner.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-07-2005).]

[HaydnFan]

Not a big fan of Handel, sorry...give me Bach or Telemann any day...there is some good Handel stuff but mostly, I don't like him because he is overrated (not because his music isn't good).