A question about Beethoven and Napoleon

[Ludwig]

What was the Bonapard's opinion for Beethoven and what was his Eroica.
Have they ever met?
Thanks for the help

[Peter]

No they never met. Beethoven had tremendous admiration for Napoleon, even after he had crowned himself emperor (an act that enraged Beethoven) he still regarded him as a great man. As late as 1810 he contemplated dedicating his C major Mass to Napoleon.

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'Man know thyself'

[sjwenger]

Would Napoleon have ever heard Eroica? He spent most of his time in the field of combat. I wouldn't expect the Vienna Philharmonic (of its time) would have been happy to entertain the invader with Beethoven.


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Fate banging on the door with a jackhammer

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
Would Napoleon have ever heard Eroica? He spent most of his time in the field of combat. I wouldn't expect the Vienna Philharmonic (of its time) would have been happy to entertain the invader with Beethoven.

Again, that brings up my pet question: Just how much of Beethoven's music was heard outside of Vienna in his life time? In another thread, I wrote that Rossini heard very little of Beethoven's music in Italy and only heard "Eroica" when he visited Vienna in 1822. In yet another thread, I wrote that "Eroica" premiered in Sweden in 1817, and the 9th premiered in Norway only in 1871! On this thread I can add the fact that only one work from Schubert's massive ouvre was published outside of Austria during Schubert's tragically short life (I leave it to the members of the forum to determine which).

So, with Napoleon busy conquering Europe, I doubt if he had much time for concerts. And with Beethoven's music being heard primarily in Austr1a, I seriously doubt that he heard much of it even if he found the time.

BTW, Franz Ignaz Beck (1733-1809) dedicated his Stabat Mater to Napoleon and Napoleon admired this work, but Beck was living and working in France.


Hofrat

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Again, that brings up my pet question: Just how much of Beethoven's music was heard outside of Vienna in his life time? In another thread, I wrote that Rossini heard very little of Beethoven's music in Italy and only heard "Eroica" when he visited Vienna in 1822. In yet another thread, I wrote that "Eroica" premiered in Sweden in 1817, and the 9th premiered in Norway only in 1871! On this thread I can add the fact that only one work from Schubert's massive ouvre was published outside of Austria during Schubert's tragically short life (I leave it to the members of the forum to determine which).

So, with Napoleon busy conquering Europe, I doubt if he had much time for concerts. And with Beethoven's music being heard primarily in Austr1a, I seriously doubt that he heard much of it even if he found the time.

BTW, Franz Ignaz Beck (1733-1809) dedicated his Stabat Mater to Napoleon and Napoleon admired this work, but Beck was living and working in France.


Hofrat

If memory serves me correctly, Berlioz was influenced somewhat by Beethoven's music. The question, then, did he hear it during Beethoven's life time or did he hear it after Beethoven's death.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

If memory serves me correctly, Berlioz was influenced somewhat by Beethoven's music. The question, then, did he hear it during Beethoven's life time or did he hear it after Beethoven's death.

Habeneck started introducing Beethoven's symphonies in the Conservoire's concerts by 1827 (or 8).
You can read better here: http://www.hberlioz.com/Predecessors/beethoven.htm

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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Droell]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Again, that brings up my pet question: Just how much of Beethoven's music was heard outside of Vienna in his life time? ...


Hofrat

Well, it wasn't the easiest thing. The symphonies & concerti weren't published for some years after their completion. Before that, the only way to perform the works was to get parts directly from the composer.

Most published music was chamber music. It was a large, profitable market based on amateur musicians in families & small groups. Music published in Vienna circulated mostly - or so I would imagine - in that immediate area. To readily get new scores in Prague or Berlin, you need wholesalers & a network of retailers. The size of early print runs will tell us if the publisher in question had a local market, or if he had a larger regional or even contintental one. Given time (decades), most works of interest will drift throughout Europe. As books did when they were all printed in Latin.

There were many musicians who circulated through Europe, Paganini the best remembered. For the most part, they played music of their own composition. Local composers were expected to compose for them (Beethoven did for several), but if I am not mistaken, the scores remained with the composer, not the touring artist.

And there was Ries. He spent a decade in London. While there, he conducted B's music, he arranged publication of sonatas, etc. So, to answer the question, at least some of Beethoven's music was known in London during Beethoven's own lifetime.

A further consideration is Ries himself. He had a brother (Peter, I think) who ended up in Berlin with a publishing house. With family connections in Bonn, with connections to his elder brother, Peter presumably had access to music from a wide geographic area & what he published (and where he distributed it) presumably reflected that.

It would be interesting to know if there was anyone else, outside of Vienna, in direct communication with B., who worked to promote B's work.

All this changed when the royal houses started to collapse, the middle class came into being, railroads were built, improved printing presses were invented & by the development of the industrial revolution / modern world in general.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Droell:
It would be interesting to know if there was anyone else, outside of Vienna, in direct communication with B., who worked to promote B's work.

All this changed when the royal houses started to collapse, the middle class came into being, railroads were built, improved printing presses were invented & by the development of the industrial revolution / modern world in general.

Well, Muzio Clementi comes to mind. He had a publishing house in London and would pass through Vienna when he visited his homeland Italy. On one of these trips in 1807, he acquired from Beethoven the publication and distribution rights in England for 8 masterpieces (for a mere 200 pounds!).

Any takers for identifying the only composition by Schubert that was published outside of Austria in his life time??


Hofrat

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Any takers for identifying the only composition by Schubert that was published outside of Austria in his life time??
Hofrat

Good Day to you, Hofrat. This will not be an all too easy task! Was the composition published only abroad during S's lifetime?
And was no other of his works actually published outside Austria up unil month 11 anno 1828!? - Seems socky to me, however I know he was in conection with the Swiss music publisher Nägeli to publish the late E flat Trio (as Opus100). When the work eventually got published and was to be sent to S he had already died. - I tend to think that the composition is to be found among his vocal oeuvre, and thus likely among his lieder/songs. - Very well - Here I go: My (first) guess is on Der Wanderer (D.489) in what would be a second edition. (It was published as early as 1821 as Opus 4 no 1.)
OK. So how far off am I? / Geratlas sending over to you ¨¨¨

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Geratlas:

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Any takers for identifying the only composition by Schubert that was published outside of Austria in his life time??
Hofrat

Good Day to you, Hofrat. This will not be an all too easy task! Was the composition published only abroad during S's lifetime?
And was no other of his works actually published outside Austria up unil month 11 anno 1828!? - Seems socky to me, however I know he was in conection with the Swiss music publisher Nägeli to publish the late E flat Trio (as Opus100). When the work eventually got published and was to be sent to S he had already died. - I tend to think that the composition is to be found among his vocal oeuvre, and thus likely among his lieder/songs. - Very well - Here I go: My (first) guess is on Der Wanderer (D.489) in what would be a second edition. (It was published as early as 1821 as Opus 4 no 1.)
OK. So how far off am I? / Geratlas sending over to you ¨¨¨

The E-flat trio is the only Schubert composition published outside of Austria during his life time!! I commend you, Geratlas, on your knowledge.


Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Geratlas;

You brought up the Swiss publisher Nageli who published Schubert's E-flat piano trio, the only Schubert composition published outside of Austria in his life time.

Beethoven had a very bad run in with Nageli. Beethoven had contracted Nageli to publish 4 piano sonatas. Beethoven finished and submitted 3 of them (which would later become opus 31). Czerny was with Beethoven when the proofs arrived and Beethoven asked him to play through one of them. After a few minutes, Beethoven jumped up in anger and asked "where is that written?" Czerny showed Beethoven. Apparently, Nageli inserted bars, full phrases, to the score. Beethoven broke off all contact with Nageli. I wonder what became of the 4th sonata.

I hope Schubert fared better with Nageli.


Hofrat

[Geratlas]

Good to C from you again, Hofrat!
Say, are you much into Schubert and his music? I am! Maybe we can find subjects to discuss on this as well. You have already revealed a reverence for his works. I think he would be the natural German composer-successor to LvB, and it is eternally regretful he was denied his chance! - - But I am off topic for now, and must, alas, counter the commendment you granted me (even though I am very glad for it.)

Originally posted by Hofrat:
The E-flat trio is the only Schubert composition published outside of Austria during his life time!! I commend you, Geratlas, on your knowledge.

Oh NO!! (How could I be so stupid!!) - I'm sorry, but I do not feel I am commendable for much knowledge this time. After all, the first thing I did was to exclude(!) the very work you asked for! (YOU are right though, the Trio was printed in S lifetime by one month (!!!): October 1828 - but I was wrong: It was not Nägeli who published it, but "selber" Probst of Leipzig who S had contacted as soon as the firm of Schott had denied to publish it. So you (and I myself) now see how for off I were, and I apologize for the mistake. Nevertheless, when the printed copy S had asked for arrived in Wien it was only too late.

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Beethoven had a very bad run in with Nageli. Beethoven had contracted Nageli to publish 4 piano sonatas. Beethoven finished and submitted 3 of them (which would later become opus 31). Czerny was with Beethoven when the proofs arrived and Beethoven asked him to play through one of them. After a few minutes, Beethoven jumped up in anger and asked "where is that written?" Czerny showed Beethoven. Apparently, Nageli inserted bars, full phrases, to the score. Beethoven broke off all contact with Nageli. I wonder what became of the 4th sonata. [/B]

Are you sure there ever was a fourth sonata to it? I read that it was Nägeli who took the initiative and requested 3 new sonatas for their series Repertoire de clavecinists. If there was one additional sonata added to the deal it may have been planned to be outside the set of three (now Opus31) and so allowed to be composed in due corse. There is actually trace of an otherwise lost sonata (Hess52) which perhaps was never finished and is not fairly dated. An explanation to why we do not not know this "4th" sonata, may then lie in growing and unresolved disagreements between the two men. What for alternatives? / yours sinc. G.
PS. I looked up your answer to my question regarding LvB's op58, where you quote the cadenzas (Hess81-3) are dated to 1809. How ascertained do you think this date is? My relatively recent source gives "1807?", and I do not see how there could be much improvement in datation of them. Ds.

[Hofrat]

Hi Geratlas;

I am not so knowledgible on Schubert as I am on Beethoven. I have the Deutsch Catalog of Schubert's works and I have been in communications with Professor Newbould, a leading scholar on Schubert, concerning a realization.

As for the dates of the 4th piano concerto cadenzas, I merely quoted my Hess catalog. I think it is most logical that they are from 1809, as the concerto was published in August 1807 and the 1st public performance of it was 22 December 1808.


Hofrat

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Hi Geratlas; I am not so knowledgible on Schubert as I am on Beethoven. I have the Deutsch Catalog of Schubert's works and I have been in communications with Professor Newbould, a leading scholar on Schubert, concerning a realization.

This sounds interesting. As a matter of fact I have Professor Newbould's biography on Schubert, 'The Music and the Man', lying here beside me; I have scrutinized it, and it is a rather comprehensive book, which deals in a certain degree with his musical writing. I will not pretend to 'know' all that about the person and his music myself, though I have for years read different kind of literature on hi and tried to run through his total oeuvre in its presumed chronological order, and I have tried, with help from sparse material I have come by, to discern dates and to some extent sources of his many dances for piano solo. Here I believe all that is needed is genuine interest, and that you do not seem to be shortage of it, I believe. - Am I in position to ask what you learned from Professor Newbould himself? (If I were allowed to talk with him I would like him to explain what's about a symphony attributed to Schubert only recently, late 20th century I'm sure, of which he claims "is a fake". I have no reason to distrust him, however, it would be nice to have somethings explained. Moreover I collect Schubert's music in such amount it stands second only to LvB's, and that counts for quite a number, and I would be happy to share it with you if I only knew how to. But there's only so much you can do. I can only await your view on this, and so be it!

Originally posted by Hofrat:
As for the dates of the 4th piano concerto cadenzas, I merely quoted my Hess catalog. I think it is most logical that they are from 1809, as the concerto was published in August 1807 and the 1st public performance of it was 22 December 1808.
Hofrat

Yes, I totally agree with you! Perhaps my source gives 1807 since the concerto was completed and published that year. (I am sure it is not a misprint!) And if the HessCat. gives 1809 there lies something behind it, I'm sure, though I find it a bit odd, as they were never used, yet survived, as if they had been. Therefore I was early on to the thought of them belonging to the chamber version (a connection which seems to be implausible by their mere [lack of] presentation). Still it is of significance why and when LvB undertook that final revision. Nevertheless, my tested friend; This will do. - Hope you'll cope / Geratlas sending over to you :::
Ps. What do you feel about starting dialog in a separate topic? Afterall, this topic is supposed to be about the musically nearsighted Napoleon, and I admit I feel slightly ridiculous to post so flooded a message(s) so utterly misplaced. Ds.

[Hofrat]

Hi Geratlas;

Yes, Professor Newbould wrote an extensive article about a fake Schubert symphony (E major from 1825). I even have a recording of it as a novelty item (some novelty as it is 2400 bars long or approximately 60 minutes). It was recorded before Newbould's article. It is laughable how the recording orchestra bragged that their recording is the premiere recording of it. Little did they know that they were duped.

But the real E-major symphony as realized by Newbould is an awesome piece.


Hofrat