Amadeus

[untamed_personality]

Hello, everyone. Looking back through previous posts on this forum, it seems there are mixed views on the above film. I accept (heartily agree in fact) that Immortal Beloved was seriously flawed, but Amadeus is my favourite film!

I know a lot is conjecture at best, but much of what happens in the film is documented. Also, the film as a whole is based on an actual fact: Salieri DID actually claim at the end of his life to have killed Mozart. So the events unfold as Antonio himself - desperate and senile - would have remembered them.

The movie itself is a masterpiece, a festival of sound and colour. The opera sets are deliciously OTT and the ASMF performances - to these ears - are excellent. 1780s Vienna is really brought to life (although it was filmed in Prague!), and that's before we mention the acting.

F Murray Abraham's performance as Salieri is a revelation, never again has he scaled these heights. Ditto Tom Hulce as Wolfgang. But it's Jeffrey Jones as the Emperor who steals the show: "There are simply too many notes, just cut a few and it'll be perfect!"

I honestly think this film is glorious, one of the few to deserve its many Oscars. It was certainly partly responsible for my love of Mozart. What does everyone else think? Modern cinematic masterpiece, or seriously ill-conceived? Would it have been better just to film 'the life of Mozart', as we know it from the literature? Would it have been much different?

Thanks,

Daz

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[This message has been edited by untamed_personality (edited 09-22-2005).]

[Peter]

As you've read the previous posts on this, you'll know I agree with you - the film was wonderful entertainment with some first class acting. It was Pushkin who helped spread the Salieri poisoning story and it was also made into an opera by Rimsky-Korsakov. The rumours were also discussed in the Beethoven conversation books.

Mozart scholars tend to be dismissive of the film, but it did introduce Mozart to a new audience. Let's hope the new Beethoven film can achieve the same success.

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'Man know thyself'

[waldstein]

Originally posted by Peter:
As you've read the previous posts on this, you'll know I agree with you - the film was wonderful entertainment with some first class acting. It was Pushkin who helped spread the Salieri poisoning story and it was also made into an opera by Rimsky-Korsakov. The rumours were also discussed in the Beethoven conversation books.

Mozart scholars tend to be dismissive of the film, but it did introduce Mozart to a new audience. Let's hope the new Beethoven film can achieve the same success.

who is the best actor who can perform the role of beethoven? i think he could be robin williams or al pacino , do you agree?

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by Peter:
As you've read the previous posts on this, you'll know I agree with you - the film was wonderful entertainment with some first class acting. It was Pushkin who helped spread the Salieri poisoning story and it was also made into an opera by Rimsky-Korsakov. The rumours were also discussed in the Beethoven conversation books.

Mozart scholars tend to be dismissive of the film, but it did introduce Mozart to a new audience. Let's hope the new Beethoven film can achieve the same success.

Yes, the new 'Copying Beethoven' film is very exciting, especially as it covers the late Quartets! The general reaction will be fascinating.



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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Steppenwolf]

Amadeus is also my favourite film! To criticise it for being historically innacurate in some regards is like criticising Shakespeare's history plays as being innacurate - it is to miss the point. The movie stands alone as a work of art, and makes no claim to being a documentary, and the fictional parts are artistically justified.

The film Immortal Beloved I thought was dreadful. Gary Oldman did an OK job at playing Beethoven, but the script was not good, and they played very little of Beethoven's music .... just a few of the old cliches that everybody has already heard a million times before. It didn't introduce the audience to other works of Beethoven that are less known.

I think Russel Crowe would be a good candidate to play Beethoven. Before you dismiss him, you should see the film 'Beautiful Mind', in which he gives a superb performance of another tormented genius.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited 09-22-2005).]

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by waldstein:
who is the best actor who can perform the role of beethoven? i think he could be robin williams or al pacino , do you agree?

I really can't imagine either actor as Beethoven, but Ed Harris has done a great job according to Stephen. I remember when the idea for IB was first mooted, before Oldman got the gig, I hoped they'd get Anthony Hopkins.



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Seizing fate by the throat...

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Amadeus is also my favourite film! To criticise it for being historically innacurate in some regards is like criticising Shakespeare's history plays as being innacurate - it is to miss the point. The movie stands alone as a work of art, and makes no claim to being a documentary, and the fictional parts are artistically justified.

The film Immortal Beloved I thought was dreadful. Gary Oldman did an OK job at playing Beethoven, but the script was not good, and they played very little of Beethoven's music .... just a few of the old cliches that everybody has already heard a million times before. It didn't introduce the audience to other works of Beethoven that are less known.

I think Russel Crowe would be a good candidate to play Beethoven. Before you dismiss him, you should see the film 'Beautiful Mind', in which he gives a superb performance of another tormented genius.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited 09-22-2005).]

I agree, Steppenwolf, some critics do miss the point. The film, like the play, is based on Salieri's claim, not Mozart's life per se. And what a brilliant job they did! A work of art indeed.

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Teresa]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
I really can't imagine either actor as Beethoven, but Ed Harris has done a great job according to Stephen. I remember when the idea for IB was first mooted, before Oldman got the gig, I hoped they'd get Anthony Hopkins.

I completely agree with you - Anthony Hopkins would be perfect as Beethoven. Not only would he bring the intensity needed for the role, but he can also play some Beethoven. I've read alot about him and he learned to play B while growing up in Wales. I had the extreme good fortune to meet Anthony while he was filming Hannibal near my office here in Richmond, Virginia. He graciously signed my first edition copy of Hannibal and consented to posing for a picture with me. A truly lovely man and a perfect Beethoven in my opinion.

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by Teresa:

I completely agree with you - Anthony Hopkins would be perfect as Beethoven. Not only would he bring the intensity needed for the role, but he can also play some Beethoven. I've read alot about him and he learned to play B while growing up in Wales. I had the extreme good fortune to meet Anthony while he was filming Hannibal near my office here in Richmond, Virginia. He graciously signed my first edition copy of Hannibal and consented to posing for a picture with me. A truly lovely man and a perfect Beethoven in my opinion.

That's great, Teresa! I've never met the man, but he's always been one of my favourite actors. With his acting abilities and voice he's always reminded me of the great Richard Burton. I remember seeing 'Audrey Rose' a long time ago and it hit me how good an actor he was. My favourite performance from him is in 'The Remains of the Day', where he is the very model of understated excellence.

I don't know why I thought he'd make a good Beethoven, there's just something about the guy. Maybe I just tried to think who would do the best job, and he was very famous at the time (having recently won an Oscar for 'Silence of the Lambs'). I've also always thought his eyes were pretty intense!

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Joy]

Amadeus was an excellent film and the acting was wonderful. I think Ed Harris will make an excellent Beethoven in the film. If you saw his picture portraying Beethoven he looks very intense and good candidate for our Ludwig.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Michael]

I was rather impressed by Paul Ries (not sure of spelling) in BBC 2's docu-drama last June.

Michael

[untamed_personality]

Joy, I've seen that picture and I agree. I thought he resembled a sort of Stieler/Waldmuller hybrid! Good stuff. I also agree about the acting in Amadeus: it was the best feature of a movie with many great features.

Michael, I agree Ries did a fine job, although I think Ian Hart (I think that was his name) did an even better job in 'Eroica'. That was another film with faults, however.

Daz

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Teresa]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
That's great, Teresa! I've never met the man, but he's always been one of my favourite actors. With his acting abilities and voice he's always reminded me of the great Richard Burton. I remember seeing 'Audrey Rose' a long time ago and it hit me how good an actor he was. My favourite performance from him is in 'The Remains of the Day', where he is the very model of understated excellence.

I don't know why I thought he'd make a good Beethoven, there's just something about the guy. Maybe I just tried to think who would do the best job, and he was very famous at the time (having recently won an Oscar for 'Silence of the Lambs'). I've also always thought his eyes were pretty intense!

Untamed --

Hopkins is my all-time favorite actor and Silence of the Lambs one of my favorite films. Burton was, in fact one of Hopkins' idols and he was able to meet him once. I know what you mean about him playing B -- I can just see him being able to get that perpetual frown down to a "T".

As a side note, I've also seen the "last" Beethoven before Ed Harris, Gary Oldman, up close and personal. I work for our state legislature at the capitol and our offices and the capitol building are used alot by Hollywod for filming, for some reason. GI Jane was filmed there, as was The Contender, which is when I saw Oldman. I was going to the snack bar to get breakfast one morning and passed this guy standing in the hallway. I did a doubletake and thought, gee, that sure did look like Gary Oldman, but I hadn't heard about him being in the movie. I checked with one of the capitol police and sure enough, it was him. He is short, with thinning hair. The shortness surprised me because in Dracula he looked tall and intimidating to me, but I guess it's possible he wore lifts in that role. But anyway, he is not a big man, almost scrawny, in a way. Still, a good actor.

Regards,
Teresa

[Peter]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
Joy, I've seen that picture and I agree. I thought he resembled a sort of Stieler/Waldmuller hybrid! Good stuff. I also agree about the acting in Amadeus: it was the best feature of a movie with many great features.

Michael, I agree Ries did a fine job, although I think Ian Hart (I think that was his name) did an even better job in 'Eroica'. That was another film with faults, however.

Daz

Maybe but none of these Paul Rhyss, Ian Hart or Gary Oldman have been convincing in my view - I think because they all present this cliched image of the angry, tormented unhappy Beethoven which is only part of the truth. Hopefully Ed Harris will succeed in bringing a more complete image to the screen.

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Originally posted by Peter:
Maybe but none of these Paul Rhyss, Ian Hart or Gary Oldman have been convincing in my view - I think because they all present this cliched image of the angry, tormented unhappy Beethoven which is only part of the truth. Hopefully Ed Harris will succeed in bringing a more complete image to the screen.

In fairness, I think Ian Hart did very much get away from the stereotyped Beethoven image. The stormy outbursts were there but he portrayed a more genial character - especially with fellow musicians - which would have been consistent with the younger B.
I may have mentioned before that in the eighties - long before "Immortal Beloved" - a film called "The Beethoven Letter" was very much in the news. It was to have starred Anthony Hopkins as the composer, but, alas, it never got made.

Michael