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**Peter** · 09-15-2005, 01:48 AM

It is strange isn't it that so many reports of Beethoven describe him as ugly yet the early portraits such as the Horneman miniature 1803 (generally considered the best likeness prior to the 1812 life mask) show a handsome young man! Countess Guicciardi (she of Moonlight sonata fame) who knew Beethoven in 1801 described him years later as ugly - truly beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Of the later portraits, Waldmuller was the finest artist to paint Beethoven, but his 1823 portrait was not highly regarded by Schindler. The famous 1819 Stieler is considered idealised though contemporaries considered it a good likeness.

As for Carl Van Beethoven I think you can rest assured that the Australian website is not reliable. Carl Van Beethoven arrived in Vienna and at first tried his hand as a music teacher and composer, he soon gave this up and became a bank clerk instead. For a time the two brothers lived together and Carl acted as his brother's business manager dealing with publishers - they had a very volatile relationship and frequently came literally to blows!

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'Man know thyself'

**Teresa** · 09-15-2005, 02:52 AM

I figured as much regarding the Austrialian website article. Here's a snippet --

--Ludwig van Beethoven lived from 1770 to 1827. During thirty-five of those years he is supposed to have composed about 126 hours of actual music, which works out as 3.6 hours of music for every year of his composing life. That puts him into the Top Ten of the musical productivity chart headed by Mozart (see later) with more than six hours. Now Beethoven moved domicile innumerable times - more than thirty times, in fact - and for much of his life was too hearing-impaired (a term he never heard) to hear any music. The Beethoven bibliography is gigantic, in itself filling a generous volume, but it glosses over many significant facts other than those of health.

On September 4, 1806, Ludwig's brother Caspar Carl became the father of Karl, Ludwig's nephew, for whose guardianship Uncle Ludwig fought a bitter legal battle in the local Landrecht tribunal, thus ousting the nephew's widowed mother Johanna (Caspar had died in 1815). This legal case happened in 1816. Three years later, Karl visited the local pawnbroker, pawned his watch, used the money to buy a pistol, and next morning shot himself through the head with fatal consequences. Suicide was diagnosed. That was seventeen years after Ludwig Beethoven had written the famous Heiligenstadt Testament in which he deplored his deafness, showing how early in life (he was thirty-two) it concerned him.

These few facts, not contradicted by either watermark examinations or DNA testing, raise certain probabilities (assuming that a certain probability is not an oxymoron). One is this: many of the original manuscripts of what we regard as Beethoven's music have either never been found, or are hidden in inaccessible collections (monasteries, museums, libraries closed on Sundays) which even the Freedom of Information Act (perhaps verboten in Germany) cannot touch.

Beethoven's music may be truly by Beethoven, but not all of it is by Ludwig, who may have had a touch of delusional grandeur. Some may be by Caspar and/or Karl. Sure, both of them predeceased Ludwig, so possibly he misappropriated their music as a symptom of aggrandisement, copying some in his own handwriting to blur the evidence, and even conducting it. We know that he conducted badly - not due to deafness, but because he was not really familiar with some of the music.--

To me, just the fact that the author was wrong about Karl's success in committing suicide shows he didn't have the facts straight.

I am curious as well about the book by his former secretary, Schindler. Is it worth reading? I've read where he distorted the facts completey and even made up things.

Thanks for all your insight--

**Peter** · 09-15-2005, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by Teresa:
I figured as much regarding the Austrialian website article. Here's a snippet --

--Ludwig van Beethoven lived from 1770 to 1827. During thirty-five of those years he is supposed to have composed about 126 hours of actual music, which works out as 3.6 hours of music for every year of his composing life. That puts him into the Top Ten of the musical productivity chart headed by Mozart (see later) with more than six hours. Now Beethoven moved domicile innumerable times - more than thirty times, in fact - and for much of his life was too hearing-impaired (a term he never heard) to hear any music. The Beethoven bibliography is gigantic, in itself filling a generous volume, but it glosses over many significant facts other than those of health.

On September 4, 1806, Ludwig's brother Caspar Carl became the father of Karl, Ludwig's nephew, for whose guardianship Uncle Ludwig fought a bitter legal battle in the local Landrecht tribunal, thus ousting the nephew's widowed mother Johanna (Caspar had died in 1815). This legal case happened in 1816. Three years later, Karl visited the local pawnbroker, pawned his watch, used the money to buy a pistol, and next morning shot himself through the head with fatal consequences. Suicide was diagnosed. That was seventeen years after Ludwig Beethoven had written the famous Heiligenstadt Testament in which he deplored his deafness, showing how early in life (he was thirty-two) it concerned him.

These few facts, not contradicted by either watermark examinations or DNA testing, raise certain probabilities (assuming that a certain probability is not an oxymoron). One is this: many of the original manuscripts of what we regard as Beethoven's music have either never been found, or are hidden in inaccessible collections (monasteries, museums, libraries closed on Sundays) which even the Freedom of Information Act (perhaps verboten in Germany) cannot touch.

Beethoven's music may be truly by Beethoven, but not all of it is by Ludwig, who may have had a touch of delusional grandeur. Some may be by Caspar and/or Karl. Sure, both of them predeceased Ludwig, so possibly he misappropriated their music as a symptom of aggrandisement, copying some in his own handwriting to blur the evidence, and even conducting it. We know that he conducted badly - not due to deafness, but because he was not really familiar with some of the music.--

To me, just the fact that the author was wrong about Karl's success in committing suicide shows he didn't have the facts straight.

I am curious as well about the book by his former secretary, Schindler. Is it worth reading? I've read where he distorted the facts completey and even made up things.

Thanks for all your insight--

Well yes Teresa the article is also wrong concerning the attempted suicide of the nephew Karl which actually took place in 1826 - Karl of course survived and contrary to the article outlived his uncle dying in 1858. This article is however interesting in that we have been having heated debates on the forum concerning the authenticity of much of Haydn and Mozart (check out the thread Beethoven's early years in Bonn).

Regarding the Schindler biography I'd avoid it unless in a heavily edited post 1970's edition - he was prone to distortion, invention and downright deceit. I would also avoid Solomon's Freudian approach. For the definitive and highly factual biography try Thayer's Life of Beethoven, Elliot Forbes (Editor). Princeton University Press. 1991. ISBN 0691027196 (paperback) or perhaps Barry Cooper's Life of Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

**spaceray** · 09-15-2005, 10:26 AM

I enjoyed a book titled "The Changing Image of Beethoven" By Alessandra Comini.She discusses a number of images of Beethoven from contemporary to present day and it's a facinating story.

I agree with Peter that Thayer is THE book on Beethoven's life ,but it couldn't hurt to read Solomon for the entertainment value,you don't have to believe eveything you read ,especially about Beethoven,lots of folks have various clues to what made LVB tick.

Happy reading,BTW I found my Thayer(the Forbes) in a 2nd hand bookshop for ten(CDN) bucks.

**untamed_personality** · 09-15-2005, 06:01 PM

According to Schindler the 1818 portrait by Ferdinand Schimon was the best likeness, he actually pointed out certain features like the eyes and the shell-like pattern on the chin.

He also considered the Stieler a good likeness, as Peter says, although he maintained Stieler only hinted at the intensity in the eyes, whereas Schimon nailed it. All things considered, the Stieler is my favourite - always has been - and a framed copy hangs on my bedroom wall! I'm also fond of the Hornemann miniature, where Ludwig is almost smiling...

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Seizing fate by the throat...

**Teresa** · 09-15-2005, 07:22 PM

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I do have the book The Changing Image of Beethoven, but have only scanned it as of yet. I also have the one by H.C. Robbins Langdon (?) and for the life of me I can't remember the exact name, but it's a big, very good book on Beethoven. I've ordered Beethoven, the Man and the Artist in His Own Words, and the one with commentaries by the people who knew him. I do plan on buying the Thayer biography, that's next on my list. Right now I'm reading the trilogy by John Suchet, The Last Master. It's a "fictional biography" written like a novel, and I've learned a lot just reading that. The author says that he stayed to the facts in writing it to make it as accurate as possible. Lots to read, but looking forward to every page!

Teresa

**Peter** · 09-15-2005, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Teresa:
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I do have the book The Changing Image of Beethoven, but have only scanned it as of yet. I also have the one by H.C. Robbins Langdon (?) and for the life of me I can't remember the exact name, but it's a big, very good book on Beethoven. I've ordered Beethoven, the Man and the Artist in His Own Words, and the one with commentaries by the people who knew him. I do plan on buying the Thayer biography, that's next on my list. Right now I'm reading the trilogy by John Suchet, The Last Master. It's a "fictional biography" written like a novel, and I've learned a lot just reading that. The author says that he stayed to the facts in writing it to make it as accurate as possible. Lots to read, but looking forward to every page!

Teresa

Beethoven: His Life, Work and World, H.C. Robbins Landon

Regarding the Thayer, make sure you go for the Eliot Forbes 2 volume edition.

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'Man know thyself'

**Teresa** · 09-15-2005, 08:53 PM

Peter, will do. Thanks. My husband was laughing last night - he called me "obsessed."

**Teresa** · 09-16-2005, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
According to Schindler the 1818 portrait by Ferdinand Schimon was the best likeness, he actually pointed out certain features like the eyes and the shell-like pattern on the chin.

He also considered the Stieler a good likeness, as Peter says, although he maintained Stieler only hinted at the intensity in the eyes, whereas Schimon nailed it. All things considered, the Stieler is my favourite - always has been - and a framed copy hangs on my bedroom wall! I'm also fond of the Hornemann miniature, where Ludwig is almost smiling...

So, would you call him "ugly", judging from his portraits? As Peter said, I guess beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, because ugliness I just don't see.

Teresa

**Teresa** · 09-16-2005, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by spaceray:
I enjoyed a book titled "The Changing Image of Beethoven" By Alessandra Comini.She discusses a number of images of Beethoven from contemporary to present day and it's a facinating story.

I agree with Peter that Thayer is THE book on Beethoven's life ,but it couldn't hurt to read Solomon for the entertainment value,you don't have to believe eveything you read ,especially about Beethoven,lots of folks have various clues to what made LVB tick.

Happy reading,BTW I found my Thayer(the Forbes) in a 2nd hand bookshop for ten(CDN) bucks.

Spaceray --

The Changing Image of Beethoven does look to be fascinating reading and I can't wait to get started. You were lucky to find your Thayer for so little. So far I've only been able to find the one volume.

Teresa

**Peter** · 09-17-2005, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Teresa:

You were lucky to find your Thayer for so little. So far I've only been able to find the one volume.

Teresa

Try searching www.abebooks.com

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'Man know thyself'

**untamed_personality** · 09-17-2005, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Teresa:
So, would you call him "ugly", judging from his portraits? As Peter said, I guess beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, because ugliness I just don't see.

Teresa

It's a difficult one for me as I'm a man! He is neither ugly nor handsome to me, he's just Beethoven. I responded so positively to the Stieler because of the seriousness, the determination, the brooding intensity - in short, I identified in that portrait everything I love about the music.

As to his being idealized, none of the portraits feature his rather unsightly pockmarks, for one thing.

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Seizing fate by the throat...

**Teresa** · 09-21-2005, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
It's a difficult one for me as I'm a man! He is neither ugly nor handsome to me, he's just Beethoven. I responded so positively to the Stieler because of the seriousness, the determination, the brooding intensity - in short, I identified in that portrait everything I love about the music.

As to his being idealized, none of the portraits feature his rather unsightly pockmarks, for one thing.

You are absolutely right about the Stieler - it probably most definitely captured the enormous intensity of the man. Can you imagine how awesome it would have been to have been in B's presence even for one day?

**Steppenwolf** · 09-21-2005, 05:16 PM

Regarding Beethoven's alleged ugliness, we need only look at his death mask to ascertain his general facial bone structure, to eliminate the possibility that his portraits were flattering. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with his appearance in that.

He was however swarthy and dark. In previous centuries, in Europe, very pale skin was considered a beautiful (unlike now when a sun tan is considered desirable), and dark complexions were considered unnatractive (Ann Boleyn, the wife of King Henry VIII of England, for instance, was not considered beautiful, just because she had a dark complexion). He was, moreover, short and a little stocky, and in his later years unkempt, scruffy and dirty in appearance, at a time when men of his society dressed a lot more elegantly than they do now. Add to that a sulking frown, as I imagine him wearing in his later, lonely years, and he may well have given the impression of being unattractive. 'Ugly' (which I guess is an English translation of the German 'hasslich') is a little strong in modern language, because we now have more euphemistic terms for lessor forms of unattractiveness.

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