Another question for the group

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by Teresa:
You are absolutely right about the Stieler - it probably most definitely captured the enormous intensity of the man. Can you imagine how awesome it would have been to have been in B's presence even for one day?

You'd have to catch him in the right mood! But yes, it must have been quite something to experience that "stupendous spirit!" as Therese Brunsvik described him.

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Regarding Beethoven's alleged ugliness, we need only look at his death mask to ascertain his general facial bone structure, to eliminate the possibility that his portraits were flattering. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with his appearance in that.

He was however swarthy and dark. In previous centuries, in Europe, very pale skin was considered a beautiful (unlike now when a sun tan is considered desirable), and dark complexions were considered unnatractive (Ann Boleyn, the wife of King Henry VIII of England, for instance, was not considered beautiful, just because she had a dark complexion). He was, moreover, short and a little stocky, and in his later years unkempt, scruffy and dirty in appearance, at a time when men of his society dressed a lot more elegantly than they do now. Add to that a sulking frown, as I imagine him wearing in his later, lonely years, and he may well have given the impression of being unattractive. 'Ugly' (which I guess is an English translation of the German 'hasslich') is a little strong in modern language, because we now have more euphemistic terms for lessor forms of unattractiveness.

Yes, all those things combined would certainly make him unattractive to others.

[Teresa]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
You'd have to catch him in the right mood! But yes, it must have been quite something to experience that "stupendous spirit!" as Therese Brunsvik described him.

He seems to have had what we'd call a very magnetic personality, which is probably why his friends stuck by him, even when he was downright nasty toward them.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

He was however swarthy and dark. In previous centuries, in Europe, very pale skin was considered a beautiful (unlike now when a sun tan is considered desirable), and dark complexions were considered unnatractive...

I suspect this may be related to the fact that, in those days, if you had a sun tan it meant you spent your life as a commoner working in the fields. Beethoven spent hours walking around the countryside half naked during his summer breaks so it would be no surprise that he would look out of place amongst the nobility.

I've mentioned this here before some personal experiences that relate to Beethoven's own circumstances, when I was a boy I spent every moment outside playing and as a result looked very dark compared to everyone else i knew in my home town in the frozen north of England, even my school teachers commented on it. I am back to my deathly pale complexion now that I avoid those cancerous rays at all costs but for a while I was know as 'the Indian' to my friends, and at other times even received racists comments!! Ah those were the days...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-21-2005).]

[sjwenger]

As Desmond Morris pointed out, beauty and attractiveness correlates with the appearance of good health. People are attractive or beautiful to each other if they look like they'll provide good genetic materials. Even before genetics was studied, people instinctively were attracted to those who would be healthy mates: the appearance of physical strength, health, clear skin, bright eyes, no congenital abnormalities, etc. Beethoven would have been unattractive by that standard.

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Fate banging on the door with a jackhammer

[Anthina]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with his appearance in that.

He was however swarthy and dark. In previous centuries, in Europe, very pale skin was considered a beautiful (unlike now when a sun tan is considered desirable), and dark complexions were considered unnatractive (Ann Boleyn, the wife of King Henry VIII of England, for instance, was not considered beautiful, just because she had a dark complexion). He was, moreover, short and a little stocky, and in his later years unkempt, scruffy and dirty in appearance, at a time when men of his society dressed a lot more elegantly than they do now.

No, I don't think there was anything wrong with his appearance in particular, to be honest judging from his portraits he was handsome and he had something special about him. But how can we be sure he really looked like that and wasn't idealized?! Right, that's the question. BUT as you already said it is always in the eye of the viewer.
I'd like to say there is some attraction towards mysterious looking people, dark hair, pale skin. For myself there is. And if you see Beethovens portraits you could seriously compare his appearance a bit with those 3 fellows (which are superstars at the moment for those who don't know them):

Severus Snape in Harry Potter http://yacht.zamok.net/DV/Potter/Pos...ew/spell13.jpg

Ville Vallo (singer in the scandinavian band "HIM") http://tootiredtothink2.weblogger.te...lle_valo51.jpg


[This message has been edited by Anthina (edited 09-21-2005).]

[Teresa]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
As Desmond Morris pointed out, beauty and attractiveness correlates with the appearance of good health. People are attractive or beautiful to each other if they look like they'll provide good genetic materials. Even before genetics was studied, people instinctively were attracted to those who would be healthy mates: the appearance of physical strength, health, clear skin, bright eyes, no congenital abnormalities, etc. Beethoven would have been unattractive by that standard.

A very good point and one that I had not thought of. Until I started reading more about him I had no idea his health was so bad in other ways.

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Anthina:
No, I don't think there was anything wrong with his appearance in particular, to be honest judging from his portraits he was handsome and he had something special about him. But how can we be sure he really looked like that and wasn't idealized?! Right, that's the question. BUT as you already said it is always in the eye of the viewer.
I'd like to say there is some attraction towards mysterious looking people, dark hair, pale skin. For myself there is. And if you see Beethovens portraits you could seriously compare his appearance a bit with those 3 fellows (which are superstars at the moment for those who don't know them):

Severus Snape in Harry Potter http://yacht.zamok.net/DV/Potter/Pos...ew/spell13.jpg

Ville Vallo (singer in the scandinavian band "HIM") http://tootiredtothink2.weblogger.te...lle_valo51.jpg


[This message has been edited by Anthina (edited 09-21-2005).]

Hello, Anthina and welcome to the group! I'm new myself and learning more about B every day. I find his life fascinating and never knew he went through as much as he did, and not just because of his hearing. As far as his appearance, yes, I could almost call him "handsome" at times, but I think for me it probably has more to do with the the dynamic and intense nature of the man more than anything else. Looking at his portraits and knowing a little more of his life really brings the portraits alive for me and I can really feel the intensity he must have conveyed.

[thebrain_1770]

Hi guys,
I'm a newbie to this group discussion thing. However, I can tell you that many of the works he composed were in fact his because the sources are reliable. Also, I believe that the protraits are extremely accurate, some of them anyways. The pictures of his younger years seem unrealistic. I'm sure that Beethoven's protraits had some pretty odd painters.

Andres

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Rod:
I suspect this may be related to the fact that, in those days, if you had a sun tan it meant you spent your life as a commoner working in the fields. Beethoven spent hours walking around the countryside half naked during his summer breaks so it would be no surprise that he would look out of place amongst the nobility.

Yes, that is entirely true.

It is interesting how society will consider attractive what is associated with wealth and privilege, and consider unattractive what is associated with poverty. In previous centuries, also, it was considered attractive to be a little plump (although not, of course, so overweight as to be unhealthy). Consider the traditional paintings of female nudes and compare them with modern supermodels. That was because only rich people could be overweight - only they could afford to eat well and to live a life without doing physical work and exercise. Now the opposite is true. Only the more affluent can afford gym membership, and the poorer subsist on junk food from fast food outlets. So now thin is considered the most desirable.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Anthina:
No, I don't think there was anything wrong with his appearance in particular, to be honest judging from his portraits he was handsome and he had something special about him.

Looking at the life mask his face has a good structure, but, as has been mentioned before, it is the very severe pock marks that are probably the key to Beethoven's 'ugliness' to my mind. In the original cast they are very apparent, but on copies I have seen these details have become 'lost' due to the duplication process, so beware.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin