Recordings of complete piano concertos

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
No fair! You guys just recently sold me on Kazakevich for the 2nd and 4th, and now I have to buy a new set!

For the 2nd concerto, my favorite is the Kazakevich and you certainly will not go wrong with it. Kazakevich's 4th has great academic interest as I pointed out in a different thread.

But Bernard was asking about a complete set not individual concerti.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Well, let us take a "public" orchestra at that time: the Royal Court Orchestra of Vienna in 1803. According to an article by Ottmar Schreiber on German orchestras and orchestral practices between 1780-1850, this orchestra numbered 35 musicians in 1803, 22 of which were string players.


Hofrat

Yes, that was the number at that time employed at the Theater an der Wien, however if Beethoven had actually wanted so few he surely would have not been happy with the 56 that performed the same work 5 years later? Financial considerations limited the numbers available. The HIP movement can become too literal I think if it equates authenticity with availability and desirability. We know for a fact that Mozart preferred larger orchestras.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by bernardc:
Please stick to these subjects!!

Yes sir! Then go for Gilels and Szell, it was the first complete set I purchased and I think the best.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

I believe the intention was 20 "string" players, not 20 "total" players.

Hofrat

No, I meant 20 players total.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
That was a private orchestra - the 1808 performance used 56 musicians. You will also be aware that 18th century orchestras were variable in size - Mozart enthused about the Mannheim orchestra to his father which had a string section of 30 musicians -that was in 1777. Small forces were generally down to availabilty and finances rather than the wishes of the composer.

I haven't had a chance to read the CD booklet yet but check this link, I think the orchestra size is in reference to the 4th concerto: http://shop.castleclassics.co.uk/aca..._Releases.html

Actualy there is an error in the text about the keyboard compass required for the 4th. But the thing is that the music works even with a string section of about 10 in this accoustic. The first movement of the 5th has never sounded better. The recording quality is 10/10.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-16-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes, that was the number at that time employed at the Theater an der Wien, however if Beethoven had actually wanted so few he surely would have not been happy with the 56 that performed the same work 5 years later? Financial considerations limited the numbers available. The HIP movement can become too literal I think if it equates authenticity with availability and desirability. We know for a fact that Mozart preferred larger orchestras.

You heard the extract from the 5th yourself as I provided the link here, and you liked it by your own words. But here is another link, French again, with extracts:
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASI...310770-8805010


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis Mariano:
20 players it is hard to belive.

A concerto is not a symphony! And who made the rule whereby you need 100 players alongside the piano?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
A concerto is not a symphony! And who made the rule whereby you need 100 players alongside the piano?

That's just the point there were and there are no rules - in the 18th and early 19th centuries it was generally down to what was available and practical. I think you'd be hard pushed today to find a modern orchestra performing a Beethoven concerto with 100 players. I find it hard to believe though that Beethoven intended just one violin for the finale of the Emperor - they claim it is based on the first performance, but do they mean Vienna or Leipzig and which score are they referring to?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
That's just the point there were and there are no rules - in the 18th and early 19th centuries it was generally down to what was available and practical. I think you'd be hard pushed today to find a modern orchestra performing a Beethoven concerto with 100 players. I find it hard to believe though that Beethoven intended just one violin for the finale of the Emperor - they claim it is based on the first performance, but do they mean Vienna or Leipzig and which score are they referring to?

It is based on the score from the performance of the 4th at the Lobkowitz palace, and 20 performers made a hell of a noise in the music room there. Considering the 5th had private performences too and the score requires only a flute in addition to that of the 4th it is not wholey unreasonable to consider a performance with similar forces.

Actually in this recording I would say the 5th comes out the better of the two and in both concertos the pianist uses the written out basso continuo parts throughout, as was the case in the original productions (and another indication of the relatively small forces the pieces were written in mind for). I've heard many tired renditions of the 5th but this is a fantastic account all things considered.

It is a matter of instrumental balance and acoustics. A few more or less fiddles is to be expected as long as the other instruments are not swamped out sonically.




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-17-2005).]

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'd go with Emil Gilels, George Szell/Cleveland Orch.

If you want HIP how about Andras Schiff. (Played on Beethoven's Broadwood piano).

Didn't Gilels only record 4 of the concertos ?

Not that it matters, he's one of my favored Beethoven interpreters and i would get the set reguardless

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
Didn't Gilels only record 4 of the concertos ?

Not that it matters, he's one of my favored Beethoven interpreters and i would get the set reguardless

The LP set I have has all 5 piano concertos and includes a wonderful account of the 32 variations in C minor. I would have thought it was available on CD?

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
It is based on the score from the performance of the 4th at the Lobkowitz palace, and 20 performers made a hell of a noise in the music room there. Considering the 5th had private performences too and the score requires only a flute in addition to that of the 4th it is not wholey unreasonable to consider a performance with similar forces.

It is of course interesting to hear and I did enjoy the sample I heard, but as in the case of the Eroica it can be demonstrated that different forces were used on different occasions therefore the Lobkowitz orchestra cannot be taken as the rule.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

It is of course interesting to hear and I did enjoy the sample I heard, but as in the case of the Eroica it can be demonstrated that different forces were used on different occasions therefore the Lobkowitz orchestra cannot be taken as the rule.

I never said anything should be the 'rule' but one could take this CD as a similar exercise as that of the BBC's 'Erioca' programme, ie recreating an actual event. On an aesthetic level it certainly works better than Gardiner's lumbering account of the Eroica!

I have Hogwood's CD with both concertos using twice as many performers and bigger fortepianos, but the piano sound in 4 is very muted wheras no5 with the same instrument sounds nice and bright as it was revoiced, so it says in the notes (pity they didnt do it earlier!).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin