Authentic page mp3s - Symphony no.7 Op.92 - 1st movt

[Peter]

Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

This is as good a performance as you'll find I think, with a superb acoustic. This is the best of the authentic instrument versions currently available, better than Hogwood's, Norrington's and Gardiner's to my ears.

Don't worry Peter, I'll never belittle our beloved ex-empress again or the lack of quality English composers (which was the point you seemed to have missed). If I were but of noble birth....

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-09-2005).]

[Joy]

I really enjoyed this one (course it is one of my favourites). Quite dynamic and I liked the tempo as well. The instruments were lively and exhibited power. Very good.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
This is as good a performance as you'll find I think, with a superb acoustic. This is the best of the authentic instrument versions currently available, better than Hogwood's, Norrington's and Gardiner's to my ears.

Don't worry Peter, I'll never belittle our beloved ex-empress again or the lack of quality English composers (which was the point you seemed to have missed). If I were but of noble birth....

The other thread closed simply because it was off topic - personally I'm not the least bothered by your opinions of the old lady (others might be), but it isn't relevant here. As to English composers, well I'm surprised you're reluctant to claim Handel for us!

Back to this thread now and a very enjoyable account of this exhuberant work - I bet the finale is a whirlwind! Not sure why you had trouble with the email but as you can see it got through eventually.

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'Man know thyself'

[sjwenger]

I have several versions of Number 7, as I'm sure many of us have. Strangely (to me), my favorite is the BBC Proms recording by the Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Osmo Vanska conducting. The horns are just right - harsh and strident, exactly as I imagine they were in Beethoven's time.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The other thread closed simply because it was off topic - personally I'm not the least bothered by your opinions of the old lady (others might be), but it isn't relevant here. As to English composers, well I'm surprised you're reluctant to claim Handel for us!

Back to this thread now and a very enjoyable account of this exhuberant work - I bet the finale is a whirlwind! Not sure why you had trouble with the email but as you can see it got through eventually.

Other than my last remark all my other points in that chain were primarily musical (ie the relative rubbishness of Russian and English and ..er.. Cambodian composers), but the subtlety of my point was obviously lost. Chaszz's initial posting I was rather crass and I enjoyed making a joke of it. Handel eventually became an legal English citizen, but blood is thicker than..er.. legal douments. Handel was a German, something I have no problem with as an Englishman.

Concerning the 7th recording, the finale is quick, but not especially so as I have heard many whirlwind accounts of that movement. The slow movement is particularly nice though in this CD.

Not sure what happened with the emails, perhaps Victoria put a gremlin in my machine?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[untamed_personality]

Really enjoyed this, cheers Rod.

I have to agree about the horns, very dramatic - as they should be. My only problem with this was the poco sostenuto, which I thought was too slow. The vivace was excellent though, the pace I expect from this piece. Maybe that's the point though: a greater contrast in tempo. I could be wrong...

I have a couple of favourite recordings: Karajan with the BPO (11:11, although he criminally omits the exposition repeat!)and Kleiber with the VPO (13:36), which is a very famous recording and rightly so. This HIP performance certainly stands comparison with either for me.

It's interesting that Rod says this is as good as the Seventh gets on period instruments. I'd certainly be surprised if there was a better HIP recording than this. Super stuff.

Once again, thanks!

Daz

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[This message has been edited by untamed_personality (edited 09-09-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
Really enjoyed this, cheers Rod.

I have to agree about the horns, very dramatic - as they should be. My only problem with this was the poco sostenuto, which I thought was too slow. The vivace was excellent though, the pace I expect from this piece. Maybe that's the point though: a greater contrast in tempo. I could be wrong...

I have a couple of favourite recordings: Karajan with the BPO (11:11, although he criminally omits the exposition repeat!)and Kleiber with the VPO (13:36), which is a very famous recording and rightly so. This HIP performance certainly stands comparison with either for me.

It's interesting that Rod says this is as good as the Seventh gets on period instruments. I'd certainly be surprised if there was a better HIP recording than this. Super stuff.

Once again, thanks!

Daz

Regarding the poco sostenuto your comment surprised me a little, I've heard it performed much slower than this CD. I accept the tendency is for this section to be performed too slow but this recording is within acceptable limits to my taste.

For the record, if you read me saying 'the best HIP recording...' what I am saying is that is the the best recording, period! I don't even consider 'modern' CDs of this music anymore.

PS I've just uploaded some lovely German arias at my Handel site, check them out. http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-10-2005).]

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by Rod:
Regarding the poco sostenuto your comment surprised me a little, I've heard it performed much slower than this CD. I accept the tendency is for this section to be performed too slow but this recording is within acceptable limits to my taste.

For the record, if you read me saying 'the best HIP recording...' what I am saying is that is the the best recording, period! I don't even consider 'modern' CDs of this music anymore.

PS I've just uploaded some lovely German arias at my Handel site, check them out. http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/

Don't worry, Rod, I'm aware of your disdain for 'modern' interpretations! It's a disdain I don't share, but I'm starting to really appreciate the authentic movement, Beethoven or otherwise. As for the poco sostenuto, maybe it's just what I'm used to. Still, it was an excellent rendition all in all!

I've joined your Handel site and really enjoyed those German arias. I've posted a reply so you know who I am!

Cheers,

Daz

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Rod]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
Don't worry, Rod, I'm aware of your disdain for 'modern' interpretations! It's a disdain I don't share, but I'm starting to really appreciate the authentic movement, Beethoven or otherwise. As for the poco sostenuto, maybe it's just what I'm used to. Still, it was an excellent rendition all in all!

I've joined your Handel site and really enjoyed those German arias. I've posted a reply so you know who I am!

Cheers,

Daz

Actually I have just listened to the mp3 and the original CD sounds more 'lively' than this in comparison so I don't think it would be so much of an issue if you had the recording.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Other than my last remark all my other points in that chain were primarily musical (ie the relative rubbishness of Russian and English and ..er.. Cambodian composers), but the subtlety of my point was obviously lost. Chaszz's initial posting I was rather crass and I enjoyed making a joke of it...

A little off-topic here but I feel I must answer this. I never said you were crass, Rod, although now that I think about it... Seriously though, my initial posting probably didn't read the way I intended it. I was thinking about the amazing achievement of Germanic composers in over two centuries of genius following genius following genius, and then how ironic that it would be the same people who descended to the depths of barbarism. Because even though Stalin and/or Mao might have killed more people, it was the Germans who set up fully industrialized factories for mass murder, which is a special distinction. And also the Germans who set out to systematically destroy one people in particular down to the last individual, which is somewht unique also, at least in the more-or-less proclaimed intention. For these two reasons the Holocaust stands apart from other instances of mass murder.

Of course I didn't mean to throw any aspersions at all on the musicians, and I actually kind of feel sorry for all post-Nazi Germans now and in the future, who didn't have any part in perpetrating the deed but will be paying for it forever.

By the way, to get back on topic, this Seventh first movement is for me the freshest, most brilliant rendition I've ever heard.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-13-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
.... And also the Germans who set out to systematically destroy one people in particular down to the last individual, which is somewht unique also, at least in the more-or-less proclaimed intention. For these two reasons the Holocaust stands apart from other instances of mass murder.

....By the way, to get back on topic, this Seventh first movement is for me the freshest, most brilliant rendition I've ever heard.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-13-2005).]

I won't mention the behaviour of the US towards the Indians in this context.... but, back on topic, you are right about the 7th.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
A little off-topic here but I feel I must answer this. I never said you were crass, Rod, although now that I think about it... Seriously though, my initial posting probably didn't read the way I intended it. I was thinking about the amazing achievement of Germanic composers in over two centuries of genius following genius following genius, and then how ironic that it would be the same people who descended to the depths of barbarism. Because even though Stalin and/or Mao might have killed more people, it was the Germans who set up fully industrialized factories for mass murder, which is a special distinction. And also the Germans who set out to systematically destroy one people in particular down to the last individual, which is somewht unique also, at least in the more-or-less proclaimed intention. For these two reasons the Holocaust stands apart from other instances of mass murder.

Of course I didn't mean to throw any aspersions at all on the musicians, and I actually kind of feel sorry for all post-Nazi Germans now and in the future, who didn't have any part in perpetrating the deed but will be paying for it forever.

By the way, to get back on topic, this Seventh first movement is for me the freshest, most brilliant rendition I've ever heard.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-13-2005).]

Yes please Chaszz don't reopen a topic that I've already had to close because it is bound to go off at irrelevant tangents and I don't want to end up closing this one. I understand your point but I would say that German and Nazi are not the same thing and there is no correlation between the events of 1939-45 and Beethoven's 7th symphony which we are discussing here!

It would be more relevant discussing the tyrant of Beethoven's day, Napoleon. The 7th was first performed at a charity concert for the benefit of the wounded at the Battle of Hannau. The musicologist Schmitz relates it directly to the French Revolutionary school and compares a passage in the finale with an extract from Gossec's 'Le Triomphe de la revolution'.



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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes please Chaszz don't reopen a topic that I've already had to close because it is bound to go off at irrelevant tangents and I don't want to end up closing this one. I understand your point but I would say that German and Nazi are not the same thing and there is no correlation between the events of 1939-45 and Beethoven's 7th symphony which we are discussing here!

It would be more relevant discussing the tyrant of Beethoven's day, Napoleon. The 7th was first performed at a charity concert for the benefit of the wounded at the Battle of Hannau. The musicologist Schmitz relates it directly to the French Revolutionary school and compares a passage in the finale with an extract from Gossec's 'Le Triomphe de la revolution'.

If Beethoven had rededicated the Third Symphony to "The memory of a great man" in protest at Napoleon's assumption of dictatorship, why would he later allow influences in his music from a composer who wrote martial music for what was left of the Revolution, which by that time was mainly war, expansionism and tyranny?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
If Beethoven had rededicated the Third Symphony to "The memory of a great man" in protest at Napoleon's assumption of dictatorship, why would he later allow influences in his music from a composer who wrote martial music for what was left of the Revolution, which by that time was mainly war, expansionism and tyranny?

It is hard today I think for us to understand the contradictions of the age - whilst Vienna was being bombarded in 1809 by the French, Beethoven was quite capable of friendship with the French army officer Baron de Tremont for whom he even played. Also as late as 1810 Beethoven contemplated dedicating the Mass in C to Napoleon.

As to the music, Beethoven was a child of his time and the heroic middle period was much influenced by the French revolutionary spirit. Gossec was a composer he would have admired, not just for his music, but for his ideals. Gossec believed passionately in liberty, equality and fraternity and also in deism he would have had common ground with Beethoven. Incidentally Gossec's requiem was the first music to be used for the revolution: On August 6, 1789, it was performed to the memory of the dead of the Bastille siege.

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'Man know thyself'